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Old 04-25-2014, 10:41 PM   #61
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This is exactly the kind of feedback we were looking for. We have looked at a ton of boats that all seem to be over powered for the kind of cruising we want to do. I have been saililng for 64 years, 30,000 miles with the current boat, and would like to spend my remaining boating years with a few more creature comforts. We keep being told that we will quickly ruin big diesel engines cruising at the speed that we enjoy, even by mechanics that I have known for years. We are just not interested in traveling the next few thousand miles at 18-20kts or more. Plus, we really can't afford $250 a day for fuel. What we are finding is that about the only thing that comes close to meeting our requirements is a Monk 36. We would really like something in the 40'+ range but what is available seem to be equipped with big twin screw engines or exceed our $150K budget. Really appreciate all your observations. As sailors, we try to avoid bad weather or go around it. If we get caught out in it, well, we deal with it. You comment about having a few extra knots available on demand is well taken.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:54 PM   #62
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Just to be clear, a Monk 36 is a hard chined semi-displacement hull. A fine boat, that is very popular for good reasons.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:07 PM   #63
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I am not sure I understand that comment. ?
George - Sure there are large FD boats with plenty of interior space. But compare apples with apples. A 30-35 ft FD hull with the classic rounded aft section being somewhat egg shaped, is generally a bit cramped back there. Even with the smaller single engine. On a 30 ft boat such as mine, the 36hp Volvo is fitted with a shoe horn; whereby many SD 30 footers will accommodate much larger twin engines.

Eye - I agree with your comments regarding rolliness. Even with my bilge keels and lead ballast, in some conditions it is like a fairground ride unless I use the sails to stabilize. If I didn't have the motorsailer version of this boat, it would not be suitable for the waters around here.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:09 PM   #64
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I'm well aware of what a Monk 36 is. I was just referring to what meets most of our requirements. The fd/sd issue to me is more about boats that are over powered for no apparent reason. I'm pretty sorry I started this thread at all. It's turned out to be an experience in TMI.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:35 PM   #65
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Don't be sorry about starting the thread. We can all learn from this back and forth stuff. Even when stuff comes up we don't want to hear we at least learn what others like and what they are thinking. There is also new information that comes to light. Sometimes I get a swollen head and think I know everything about boats until I read a post that brings me back to reality.
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Old 04-26-2014, 02:16 AM   #66
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Eye:
This is exactly the kind of feedback we were looking for. We have looked at a ton of boats that all seem to be over powered for the kind of cruising we want to do. I have been saililng for 64 years, 30,000 miles with the current boat, and would like to spend my remaining boating years with a few more creature comforts. We keep being told that we will quickly ruin big diesel engines cruising at the speed that we enjoy, even by mechanics that I have known for years. We are just not interested in traveling the next few thousand miles at 18-20kts or more. Plus, we really can't afford $250 a day for fuel. What we are finding is that about the only thing that comes close to meeting our requirements is a Monk 36. We would really like something in the 40'+ range but what is available seem to be equipped with big twin screw engines or exceed our $150K budget. Really appreciate all your observations. As sailors, we try to avoid bad weather or go around it. If we get caught out in it, well, we deal with it. You comment about having a few extra knots available on demand is well taken.
Frankly I'd break a bit free of the labels since the arguments on definition can run forever. Plus once you figure out the definition it doesn't tell you that they're all the same. There are many alternatives and both boats and engines vary. So it amounts to a specific boat with specific engines and it's fuel usage at the speeds you like.

To say big engines shouldn't be run at idle speeds or slightly above is again a broad statement. You can have two engines that started out the same but were tuned differently, one pushed for maximum hp or the other detuned so it could run better at slow speeds. Now most don't do best with continuous, just need occasional high rpms. I was evaluating a boat today with two different engines (well, I was reading what engineers and architects provided). The engines that were 50% larger used less fuel at 750, 1000 and 1250 rpm and higher speed at 1000 and 1250. I was also looking at two different boats with different brand engines. Fuel curve most interesting. Brand A was a much larger boat but got better fuel mileage at all rpms over 1000. However, Brand B used 40% less fuel at 600-700 rpm and 8 knots.

Good luck in your search. The boat you want is out there, just a task to find it.
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Old 04-26-2014, 06:25 AM   #67
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We would really like something in the 40'+ range but what is available seem to be equipped with big twin screw engines or exceed our $150K budget.

Try looking WHERE the boats are!

Florida Mariner will have a few dozen listings of useful 40 ft boats from about $50K and on up.

Or get a FL broker as buyers rep.

Easy delivery the AICW is almost all a no brainer , in a river.
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:04 AM   #68
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:54 AM   #69
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Next time you hear someone say that about ruining engines by running them too gently, ask them for actual examples. Even on old technology engines, you can counteract any ill effects of running at low speeds for a long period of time by running them up for 15 or 20 minutes at the end of the day, or even the next day.

Here is a good discourse on the issue, he has other articles that talk around the same subject:

Low Speed Running & “Break-In” of Marine Diesels

To the OP: Monk 36 is a really nice boat. Being you are in WI, if you can find a fresh water example, that's going to be great. Obviously you want a boat that is in good shape, rather than taking on a project, thus finding it hard to get a really good 40 footer in your price range. Certainly there are plenty of 40-50 footers in that range, but they are old.
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:01 AM   #70
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Barpilot,
An option to consider or render scope.

Find a 42' GB w single engine. Underpowered re the SD hull and not as seaworthy as a "true" FD hull but the price to pay in fuel economy isn't that great ... $100 fuel run or $150 fuel run. And the engine will be running hard enough to keep it's temps up. BUT that will amount to 3 gph. You can't push a 42' boat like a GB at 7 knots w/o applying 50 or 60hp. A departed member here had a 36 GB and burned 3gph .. on each engine at 8 knots as I recall. A 40' Willard will require half as much. However a W40 is over powered and since they require so little power you'll be back in the underloading zone again.

You're so used to sailboats perhaps spending some time on a 34-36' trawler would result in your length requirements being lowered. 34' CHB's are very roomy compared to a 34' sailboat. Sailboats are skinny at both ends and have a very small greenhouse.

Why not just spend some time looking and get a FD boat.

Or just get the boat that you like best and don't worry about the underloading issue. If you search threads here for skippers rebuilding or repowering because of low loading damage you might grow old before you find some .. or one. Regarding talk on this site though you may literally become a "stink pot" though.
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:31 AM   #71
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As many have posted here....if they run their SD boat in a displacement mode...the fuel savings are good enough...maybe very close to what some FD boats get...that's because ...THERE IS NO MAJIC JUMP BETWEEN THE TWO HULL FORMS.....it's a curve and two hull form descriptions can be very close in performance when the SD is run slower.

My Albin has less than an inch immersed at the transom at the chines because I have shed so much weight...so much for using immersed transom for any kind of description.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:03 PM   #72
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FF & Eric:
We are looking at boats from the Mississippi to the east coast, up and down. We talk to brokers every week. Yachtworld is our friend, sort of. The problem with talking with brokers and searching Yachtworld is that neither the brokers or pictures tell you the whole story. Brokers will tell you anything you want to hear on the phone. I question sometimes if they have ever actually been aboard some of the boats. It's for sure at 71 I am not looking for a fixer upper. Having owned a boat every day of my life for the last 64 years, I'm not exactly a rookie at buying boats. I'm must a rookie at buying a trawler. One that will satisfy my wife and I so that we can continue to liveaboard and cruise a few more years.
I suppose if any of you on TF were considering moving to sail I could overwhelm you with all kinds of technical information as to what to look for. I just never thought this process would be as difficult as it is turning out.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a guy at a boat show a few years ago. We were discussing new products that come on the market. The guy says to me, "you know the difference between you sailors and power boaters?" No, I say, but, I'm sure I'm about to find out. The guy says "a power boater sees a new product and says "I'll buy 2." The sailor looks at the product and says "I think I can build it cheaper." There may be a little truth in that. Sailors have to be inventive. Something breaks when sailing offshore and you better be creative with your fix.
Anyway, we keep digesting all this information. Hopefully, sometime this season we will have a new boat. One that will keep us on the water for a few more years.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:31 PM   #73
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psneeld says " So much depends on how, and how well you set an anchor in the first place. Do you go slow and let it "soak", as a friend of mine puts it, sinking it in deeper and deeper."

Most all trawlers have their chines close to the surface but the center of the transom is on most trawlers much deeper. The average between the two is the meaningful point ... that's wehere the QBBL is. Don't recall seeing an Albin 43 out of the water. Were they designed in Sweden? I think not.


Yes Barpilot pics are good and it's amazing how many boats on YW have no pics of the hull out of the water. Frustrating. But most here have pics of their stern out and would probably share. We could take pics in our boat yards and post them.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:52 PM   #74
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FF & Eric:
We are looking at boats from the Mississippi to the east coast, up and down. We talk to brokers every week. Yachtworld is our friend, sort of. The problem with talking with brokers and searching Yachtworld is that neither the brokers or pictures tell you the whole story. Brokers will tell you anything you want to hear on the phone. I question sometimes if they have ever actually been aboard some of the boats. It's for sure at 71 I am not looking for a fixer upper. Having owned a boat every day of my life for the last 64 years, I'm not exactly a rookie at buying boats. I'm must a rookie at buying a trawler. One that will satisfy my wife and I so that we can continue to liveaboard and cruise a few more years.
I suppose if any of you on TF were considering moving to sail I could overwhelm you with all kinds of technical information as to what to look for. I just never thought this process would be as difficult as it is turning out.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a guy at a boat show a few years ago. We were discussing new products that come on the market. The guy says to me, "you know the difference between you sailors and power boaters?" No, I say, but, I'm sure I'm about to find out. The guy says "a power boater sees a new product and says "I'll buy 2." The sailor looks at the product and says "I think I can build it cheaper." There may be a little truth in that. Sailors have to be inventive. Something breaks when sailing offshore and you better be creative with your fix.
Anyway, we keep digesting all this information. Hopefully, sometime this season we will have a new boat. One that will keep us on the water for a few more years.
Don't think a lot of us didn't have out roots in sailing....and some pretty high level and/or successful racers.

Just like sailors...some trawler guys (at least liveaboard cruisers) are frugal and others have a lot more discretionary money to spend.

Keep your points specific and they can be addressed specifically....for those that creep into gay areas...just a fact of life and particularly with boating as it seems to be the universe of compromise.

Back to post #1...you state the myth that SD hulls will have excessive fuel consumption...while they may be more all things equal...they never really are. As a compromise...some sacrifice in fuel may pay big dividends elsewhere.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:58 PM   #75
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Spreadsheet or Chart

My wife sometimes says I'll do a spreadsheet on anything, but we did built them on boat buying and they can help a lot. I listed all the technical data plus our observations or thoughts on boats room by room. No FD or SD but actual usage and range. With a wide list of boats side by side things came into view easier. I'd eliminate one by one, actually hiding them on the spreadsheet. Then amazingly I found myself down to a few builders. One had been eliminated because of range. Another no decent dinghy storage. Another galley down and we wanted up. It also helped us focus on the items key to us. Oh draft and air draft eliminated many. Then you'll be amazed at the detailed information available.

For instance, someone mentioned Grand Banks. Ok, 42 Heritage CL, Retired model. Twin Cummins 210's. At 1800 rpms, 10 knots, 4 gph. Twin Cummins 315, At 1800 rpms, 10 knots, 5 gph. Max speed on the two was 16 and 18. Interesting note that the 36 Heritage CL with same 210's has same usage, lower speed at 1800 rpms. Now in all cases it's obvious you can improve fuel usage by reducing to 1000 rpms. So SD Twins, in our out. You decide and hide or keep.

You also learn in doing this how to estimate quite well the data you can't find because such a large percentage is available online. Now, if fuel is crucial why not add a fuel flow to your sea trial and survey when that time comes to verify what you've been told.

Just taking a couple of minutes, I decided to just look quickly at a few that fit your price range. 48' OA w/twin 260's. 47' Lien Hwa with twin Lehman 275's. 46' Island Trader Motorsailer/Trawler with single 108 hp Lehman, 46' Marine Trader w/single 120 hp. Don't be too quick to dismiss boats such as Silverton, Carver, Sea Ray, Meridian, Bayliner. Some of those service as excellent trawlers even if not FD. 40' Bayliner 4087 with twin 270 hp Cummins, 40' Carver with twin 315 hp Cummins, 40' Silverton with twin 350 hp CATS, 40' Bruce Roberts with single 220 hp Cummins, 36' Kadey Krogen Manatee with single Volvo, 36' Albin with single CAT 420, 36' Sabre, 39' Mainship with twin Volvo 200.

The beauty today is window shopping on Yacht World and similar. You can look inside, see layout, say stateroom too small, don't like cockpit, galley too tight. Instead of this being a dreaded exercise turn it into fun, just doing it leisurely.
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:30 PM   #76
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I didn't notice it specifically mentioned, the DeFever Passagemaker or Downeast (same design) 40' is a pretty nice boat. Many of the Passagemaker's were powered with a single 130HP Perkins. You can argue all day about the hull form, but at just under 8 knots at 3gph she's a lot of boat. And idled back to just over 7 knots she's reasonably economical as well. They are available at under $100k these days.
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:43 PM   #77
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Is a Romsdal an "off brand"?
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:59 PM   #78
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Is a Romsdal an "off brand"?

Teey are fine boats fir the ocean cruising folks.

Most folks want GRP boats as they prefer to have fun rather than re-plank, or chip rust.

A plastic Romsdal would be a big hit with the few offshore folks.

On the east coast inshore and the Bahamas their draft is a big hassle.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:18 PM   #79
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I didn't notice it specifically mentioned, the DeFever Passagemaker or Downeast (same design) 40' is a pretty nice boat. Many of the Passagemaker's were powered with a single 130HP Perkins. You can argue all day about the hull form, but at just under 8 knots at 3gph she's a lot of boat. And idled back to just over 7 knots she's reasonably economical as well. They are available at under $100k these days.
And a well designed 40 can be more boat than a poorly designed 50. Especially if there's a bridge for space.

One of the advantages Trawler type boats have is that when you take some other factors and make them less important you can make a boat more functional. As a comparison, most 40-45' Trawler type displacement boats have more usable space than 50' Princess or 51' Sea Ray Sundancer. It's a matter of finding the boat that most matches your needs. And because no boat will perfectly, find the one that the compromises aren't really important on.

And certainly more space than a sailboat that length
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:59 PM   #80
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Scott wrote;

"Back to post #1...you state the myth that SD hulls will have excessive fuel consumption...while they may be more all things equal...they never really are. As a compromise...some sacrifice in fuel may pay big dividends elsewhere.

A FD hull that isn't excessively heavy will consume considerably less fuel than a SD .. BUT as you say "some sacrifice in fuel may pay big dividends elsewhere" That's why IMO there is no more demand for FD boats than SD. At least that's my take on the market. Buyers aren't lining up to buy Willard's and I'll bet it's the same for other FD trawlers.

We looked at a Fly Bridge 3 cabin 36' trawler awhile back and both of us loved it. So many places to walk around. We aren't so sensitive to tippy trawlers but most take stability more seriously. We thought we could endure double the fuel burn to get all that space. So I agree w you fully on that point. There's many advantages to SD trawlers.
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