Trawlers 101 - Part II

[marinetrader]

TRAWLER SIZE
When you feel you have just the layout that will suit you, whats the right length? You need to know that the overall elbow room in a 36 footer compared to a 40 footer is very different even with just a few feet added. The following is a basic guide.
30-35': This size boat is OK for a couple but having long-term guests aboard can be difficult.* This size is meant for coastal use.* Think of this as a pop-up camper.
36-39': This boat is fine for two people to handle and is suitable for light offshore use and coastal cruising.* Overnight guests will be comfortable.* A floating condo it is.
40-44':* This vessel has the size for insurance of comfort and safety; think of her as a single-family home.* She has more than enough room for guests.* These size vessels make up the majority of the yachts in the cruising community.
45' - Larger:* This size boat is your long-range passagemaker.* Built for enduring long ocean voyages, these vessels come with the most luxurious features of any boat afloat.* These equate to a villa in the Bahamas..
TRAWLER ACCOMMODATIONS
Now we have reviewed the basic trawler designs, what do we need to consider for accommodations?* Trawlers typically have 2,3 or maybe 4 staterooms (bedrooms) with heads (baths).* A galley (kitchen) with dinette (dining room) is there as well.* The salon (den) is where we can watch the TV if we want.* And like most trawlers, you can expect teak to be used throughout the boat.
Sundeck models have steps leading to the aft sundeck. Most also have parquet teak floors, which looks nice with a nice oriental rug. Most trawlers have engine room access panels in the salon as well. Most salons of the 40-foot class will accommodate a couple of lean-back chairs or sofa, two small tables and an entertainment center. Placing a teak magazine rack close by and you have about all you need.* Staterooms are the private areas aboard. The sundeck model has an aft master stateroom that is very large and separate from the forward stateroom by the galley and salon.
Staterooms have a variety of storage lockers so make sure the boat you like has plenty. Like everything, price is not always an indicator. Carpeting in the stateroom is a matter of choice. Many prefer to use rugs as not to hide the beauty of the teak flooring.
You will spend a substantial amount of time in the galley. Galleys will come equipped with a cooktop, sink and refrigeration as a minimum.* Larger boats may have more.* Again, storage will be different in each boat.* Some boats have the galley up while others are down; its a individual choice.
The galley down usually has a dinette that is convertible into a bunk.* Dinettes usually will seat from 4-6 people.* Storage is usually found under the seating for rarely used appliances.
Boats in the 40 foot class have two heads; one in the master suite and one supplied for guests.
Many master stateroom heads have a separate shower, toilet, and vanity. Having a separate shower is a must if guests are expected. Even so, its like two people getting showered and dressed in a phone booth. Older heads had hand-pump toilets but the newer electric flush or Vacuflush models are much better and simpler to use. Some boats have one head to be shared by all on board so consider who may join you on your new boat.
TRAWLER ENGINES
Boats can be obtained with both single and twin engine configurations. There is no shortfall of articles about the advantage of both. The primary advantages to twins are 1) easy maneuvering at close quarters, and 2) get home engine if one fails. The disadvantage is having to maintain two of everything. Diesel consumption is also doubled. Single engines offer low fuel consumption but require more difficulty in operation at close quarters. There is usually no get-home engine so that may be an issue to some. An advantage in most boats is the ease of maintenance due to more room in the engine room.
THE CURRENT TRAWLER MARKET
We have looked at the differences between trawler styles and layouts.* So where can you locate that perfect boat.* Here are some hints.
Find a Broker to act as your agent; if he does not have the right boat in inventory, he can locate one for you in his MLS.
Scour the internet; Yachtworld.com is the best location.
Visit every marina you know of.
Congratulate any boater on their trawler and they will gladly show you around.
Have fun looking at boats.
The author is a live aboard trawler owner, Broker and owner of Paradise Yachts, a full service Florida yacht brokerage.

 

[Nomad Willy]

What an outrageous statement. "Diesel consumption is also doubled". You can't compare a given boat going 8 knots with the same boat going 12 knots! Of course if you apply twice the power to a given boat you'll burn about twice the fuel. The number of engines and propellers on a boat have little to do with the fuel burn. We've been through this before. Look in the archives. And lets not get into an argument about efficiency and single v/s twin screw -* the difference is small and the benefit can go either way depending on the individual craft. Also the maint in terms of cost or time is not far off** ..* nowhere near double. By saying they are your'e saying the parts of a 200 hp engine is the same as a 100 hp engine. Most of the parts and fluids for an engine probably cost about the same #of dollars per hp. Your comments on size are slanted to "bigger is better". It's a strech to compare a 42 Krogen w a 42 Chris, or a 30' Bayliner w a 30' Willard. Since wer'e in class "Trawlers 101" try to keep comparisions to apples and apples.

Eric Henning

 

[sunchaser]

Too many errors to comment on and as Nomaadwilly points out some just silly. This kind of*"adversetisement" should be in the classified section.

 

[Marin]

I think Eric made a lot of excellent points about the realities of comparing boats. There are so many variables in boating, not only in the boats but in how people want to use them, that trying to establish "definitions" or make blanket statements about configurations, characteristics, etc. is pretty futile. We managed to stretch a discussion about the definitions of "sedan" and "europa" out to some eight pages with nobody conceding that anyone else was correct. To make definitive fuel burn claims for twins, or define the requirements for a galley, or imply that a twin is automaticalliy easier to maneuver than a single are over-simplifications that don't necessarily help out the person new to boating. They will soon find that there are so many exceptions to the "rules" that they'll either get totally confused or start to wonder why they paid any attention to the rules in the first place.

So thank you Eric, for pointing out that nothing--- particularly in boating--- is ever as simple and straightforward as we might wish it to be.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 16th of October 2009 01:31:44 PM

 

[Tom.B]

That's a bit harsh. I mean, I think Mike is speaking in far more general terms. While if you really get down to the math of the whole thing, sure, you don't double this or that. However, the info he is providing is exactly what new buyers need to know. Yes, it's part of the shopper's learning curve and most will eventually pick up the difference between Sedans and Sundecks, but needs to know earlier rather than later that two engines DO consume more fuel and require two of everything to keep in tip-top condition. Armed with info like this really help speed the process and prevent a lot of wasted time searching for the wrong trawler for your needs.

Give the guy a break. He really is trying to help. We went through more than one broker who lost their patience with us while we floundered around not knowing what we wanted because early info was weak and incorrect. No sense splitting hairs about fuel numbers before you ever have bought a drop. Really, does it matter when you are new to yachting that a single screw make 8 knots at 3gph and a double screw can do it in 5?

 

[sunchaser]

Harsh. hardly. Semi-factual or flat out wrong information is exactly that. The best place on this site for a broker's advertising stuff is the classifieds section.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Size. Mike does point out in more than a few words that size and accommodations are very important. That was almost my biggest complaint about my last boat** .. too small. It was an Albin 25. I never stopped bumping my body on parts on the boat* .. mostly my head. The motion on waves was too snappy and quick. The Willard w a smaller than usual cabin since it is a walk around was still much bigger and has* a slow easy motion compared to the Albin.
I think the most important important thing about a boat is how much you like it. The best boat gives the most joy. Look at some of the guys on the forum. Marin, myself and Walt really love our boats but all three of us have talked about getting another boat. Open minded dudes perhaps but happy boaters for sure. The best advice Mike offered could have been "have fun looking at boats". I wish be there again. Of course it's nice when the fun continues. It's quite possible the guys w Nordic 32s didn't like being called "pop up campers". The point was well made but at their expense. Thank you Marin and your'e sooo right** ...* so many variables.

Eric Henning

 

[Marin]

We met a couple who have a 25 foot (I think) C-Dory. They have taken it up the Inside Passage to SE Alaska and back. For them, this was much more than a pop-up camper. It was their home for months on end.

I think it's important that people new to our kind of boating understand that if their budget cannot accomodate a boat 36' or longer, they can still go long-distance cruising. And that, depending on the design of the boat, a boat of this size can deal with pretty nasty weather and water should they encounter it. The size of a boat certainly affects the creature comforts it can have, but it doesn't automatically mean that a big boat is a requirement for serious cruising.

I read an account of a couple of guys who, druing the Depression, heard a rumor that there*were jobs to be had in Prince Rupert, BC. They were at Minstrel Island, which is several hundred miles south of Prince Rupert. It was February, but they took their 16 or 17 foot skiff and rowed through the storms up the Inside Passage to Prince Rupert. Turned out there were no jobs, so they rowed through the storms back to Mistrel Island.

There's a saying I read in a Boy's Life story back in the 1960s--- "Buy the smallest boat you can afford." By which the author meant that for a given amount of money, the smaller the boat you buy the better shape it will be in, or newer, which amounts to the same thing. This is not to say that a person should buy a boat that's too small for what they want to do with it. But one doesn't automatically have to buy a 40-plus foot boat no matter what their budget is if they want to take longer cruises. For the same money it takes to buy a "needs work" 42-footer one can buy a really nice 32-footer and go to the same places and even take a guest or two.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 16th of October 2009 04:42:41 PM

 

[Codger2]

Marin wrote:. But one doesn't automatically have to buy a 40-plus foot boat no matter what their budget is if they want to take longer cruises. For the same money it takes to buy a "needs work" 42-footer one can buy a really nice 32-footer and go to the same places and even take a guest or two.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 16th of October 2009 04:42:41 PM

Amen brother!* I've had boats up to 54 feet which I liked but did not love. Marin's advice should be heeded by those who are about to put their toe in the water and buy a trawler.
I can afford a big boat but my heart is with the smaller trawlers. I cruise the same waters I did with the big boat but for a hell of a lot less money! Now, if I were a serious cruiser (hundreds or thousands of miles every year) I 'd definitely have a much bigger boat.

My boat, SeaHorse II, has a queen size bed, with a custom innerspring mattress, a nice head with a separate shower stall, TV & DVD, Propane stove, ice maker, refrigerator, excellent electronics, fuel polishing system, single diesel, etc., etc,. etc,. All in 32 feet!
It fits my mission to a tee and I've had several serious offers to sell her. At present, it's not in the cards. Bigger is not necessarily better! (In boats that is.)





*

 

[FF]

"Also the maint in terms of cost or time is not far off .. nowhere near double."

While the fuel cost wont be double the maint time and co$t sure will.

2x the stuffing boxes ,props & shafts out where they are very unprotected

2x the oil changes , water pumps , seacocks, filters , head bolts to torque , 2 starters and alternators to maintain, double the engine instruments , control cables.

To get the picture , just remember what you did in the past , and double it.

And remember the limited space of a packed* full Hell Hole is far slower for most normal* maint .

Not pointed out is the idea that a single may be of better base stock , and the loading more in line with the Mfg 24/7 requirements.

And a single CPP (for efficiency) is half the cost of a pair.

YRMV,

FF

-- Edited by FF on Saturday 17th of October 2009 05:03:16 AM

 

[2bucks]

Since we all agree on all those points, tell me, what color is the sky?

I just have to laugh when someone argues that two engines don't have twice the maintenance. If you run one engine 1000 hours doesn't it need the same maintenance as the twin that is running right beside it. How could it be different? If I change my single engines belts and hoses at 5 year intervals, does that change to 10 years if I have twins? If I change oil at 100 hours with a single do I go to 200 hours because I have twins? Engine maintenance is engine maintenance, single or twin it's normall based on hours run or years in service, I've never heard of maintenance based on having a twin sitting next to it.

Ken

 

[sunchaser]

A fairer comparison would be one*500 hp vs 2 -270s hp. This is the approximate choice offered by NT in their larger models. I'm not aware of too many NEW build models that you*have a*choice.

 

[Marin]

Operating costs won't be twice what they are with a single because operating cost includes fuel. Engine maintenance time and cost will definitely be doubled if you limit those figures to servicing and maintaining the core engines alone.

But it is possible to have costs associated with one engine and not with the other. We had to shut our port engine down near the end of our "delivery" cruise from Tacoma to Bellingham because the engine's coolant pump began to leak something fierce. The pump had to be replaced, but we have not yet had to touch the coolant pump on the starboard engine in the eleven years we've had the boat. A few years ago a pinhole leak developed in one of the injection pipes on the port engine. We had the pipe replaced but we have not had any problems with any of the pipes on the starboard engine. We had to have the raw water pump overhauled on the port engine to cure a dripping problem; the raw water pump on the starboard engine never had any problems. Now, we did have to change the pump impellers on both engines when their service time was up. And when we decided to upgrade both engines to the newer, more reliable Johnson pump, the parts and labor costs associated with that were, of course, twice what they would have been with only one FL20.

You could make the case that EVENTUALLY everything that goes wrong with one engine and drive line will probably go wrong with the other one, so in that regard, yes, the maintenance and repair costs and time of a twin are double that of a single if you own it long enough.

Incidentally, when I remarked to the owner of the diesel shop we use that our port engine seemed to have more of these sorts of "accessory" problems than the starboard engine, he said that in all the years they had been in business--- they are the primary diesel shop for the Bellingham recreational and commercial fleets--- they had noticed that when it came to twin engine boats, they work on far more port engines than starboard engines. He had no explanation or even guess as to why.

 

[RED]

Boy, some of you sure can be downright anal. I read through the starting post, and see it as an attempt to provide some helpful information, along with some generalized analogies. Sure Mike is a broker, but there is full disclosure, and this doesn't even some close to advertising such as "I have xyz that would be perfect for what I have described".

It's a lot easier being a "reader critic" than an "author defender".

I'd enjoy this forum much more if there wasn't quite so much "gotcha" being written.

Sorry for the rant, read carefully, I haven't singled anybody out here. Now back to your regular programming....

 

[Nomad Willy]

I don't think we need commercial stuff on this site and the last three sentences of his post are out of place. Isn't there a place on this site where it says "no brokers"? Adding a brokers knowledge to the site is a good thing and friendly comradery is even better but giving out a business name and asking for response is not good** .. in my opnion.

Eric Henning

 

[FF]

Adding a brokers knowledge to the site is a good thing and friendly comradery is even better but giving out a business name and asking for response is not good .. in my opnion.


Sort of agree , BUT all information has a price .

The posted basic info could be useful to a wannabee , and were all adult enough to know there is no free lunch (except for Bummer voters).

 

[marinetrader]

Lighten up people. My goal here is to help new trawler buyers. I deal with many people day in and day out who have no clue of where to begin. I'm simply trying to give them some direction. Oh and by the way, I own a 40 ft. twin screw so I do know a little about what I am talking about.

But if you want to split hairs on the the fuel consumption of a single vs. twin, go ahead; you obviuosly have nothing else better to do..

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mike,

It's obvious to all that you're goal here is to help new trawler buyers buy boats from YOU*** ....** or the name of your business would not appear on the post. You even started listing services. Or perhaps I'm out of line. Maybe I'm just assuming but at any rate if it's OK w the management and the members them I'll change my tune and support advertising on the Trawler Forum. By the way mike that dosn't look like a 40' boat in your Avitar. Let's see a picture of your own boat. Send your pics to Seahorse** ..* he's the new visual effects master here.

Eric Henning

 

[sunchaser]

Right on Nomadwilly.

 

[Tom.B]

Nomadwilly, do you really expect someone who owns a business to NOT try and promote it, even a little, where potential customers congregate? And while you may seem some sort of shameless plug, I see a genuine attempt to help people. Try and keep it into perspective. He spent 95% of his post trying to help new buyers, and you want to drill him for spending 5% trying to point them, even slightly, to his own business? Do you feel like this when advertising is plastered all over other websites and forums? BoaterEd won't allow posters to link to other commercial sites. Cruisenet.net and cruisersforum.com content doesn't even start until AFTER you scroll down beyond the click ads. Please, let's cut Mike some slack here. It seems you are the one with the glass-half-empty mentality.

 

[Nomad Willy]

TB,

" glass half empty mentally" is wayyyy below the belt and worse than anything I've ever said to anyone. But your'e right about the percentages part but from what I've read and heard Ted Bundy was a really nice guy to everyone he didn't kill. I threw my opnion out but as I said it's not my opnion that counts but what the rules say and perhaps what the members say. Well wev'e got your vote but you didn't need to cut so low. And yes I do expect Mike to know the rules and abide by them** .. and if they say 5% of ones posts can be comercial advertising*** ..* as I've said before, I'll support that.This is Nomad Willy over and OUT.

Eric Henning

 

[RED]

Nomadwilly
You might like to know that "over and out" is considered inappropriate for radio communications. The reason is the meaning of the terminology.
"Over" signifies "I have finished this sentence, thought, etc, and I am waiting for your response". It signifies you intend to continue on the frequency.
"Out" signifies "I have finiished this conversation, and am terminating" which then clears up the frequency for other users.
Another popular termination for marine radio is "this is 'boatname', clear to 16". This again signifies you have cleared the channel for other users and are returning to radio watch on the calling channel.

Just trying to be helpful...

 

[Marin]

I think it's up to the forum hosts, John and Doug, to determine what constitutes advertising and business solicitation and what doesn't. And to decide the limits of this sort of information.

Mike is taking every opportunity to promote his broker business--- otherwise why put the information in the signature line? I suspect any business owner would do the same given the opportunity. Like Eric, I took issue with some of the broad-brush statements in Mike's trawler definition posts, but, like Eric, these were just my opinions. The question of business promotion I'm happy to leave to John and Doug. Seeing what a person does for a living can be helpful in judging that person's credibility with regards to information, opinions, experiences, or suggestions they post to the forum.

So until John and Doug make a ruling to the contrary, I wonder if I can include a promotional blurb in my signature. How about:

C. Marin Faure
Boeing Sales & Marketing
http://www.boeing.com/

That way if anyone on the forum is thinking about buying a jetliner--- right now we have a few open slots on 777 deliveries--- they can contact me. Everyone knows yacht owners have more money than God, so how 'bout a nice jetliner to go with that trawler? Not that this would do me any good--- Boeing doesn't pay its sales people commissions.

 

[FF]

"By the way mike that doesn't look like a 40' boat in your Avitar."

I don't know ,could it be 40 ft high?

It certainly is an example of a smooth brown water , "unsafe at every speed" , style vessel built as a house afloat.

FF

 

[Marc1]

Sometimes when I read a thread like this and some others I came across I question the little time I spend on this forum.
It reminds me of the condominum meeting of Seinfeld's father In Florida.... Particularly the few episodes about the Cadillac...

-- Edited by Marc1 on Monday 19th of October 2009 04:43:18 AM

 

[Nomad Willy]

I hate it when a guy goes to church and after the sermon at the coffee hour he passes out as many business cards as possible.
Marin and FF I agree w you 110% but you better take me off the waiting list Marin.
Marci... what about the Cadillac. You forgot to leave a business card.
RED I've said things more inappropriate than that on the radio. We don't get much radio practice up here except listening to fishermen and their radio propriety is from a different planet

over
Eric Henning

 

[FF]

Just for the heck of it why not read again Beede's Passagemaking tome (volume 1 ) and compare the list of his requirements for a passagemaker with the advertisers avatar.

FF

 

[Nomad Willy]

What for. This is a trawler forum not a passage makers forum.

 

[sunchaser]

For fear of inciting a riot, and*taking into account*what Nordhavn is doing, I*pose this question in small print** *Is Beebe (1) not at all (2) a little bit (2) a lot (4) totally valid in 2009 or just interesting reading like Conrad?

 

[2bucks]

marinetrader wrote:

Lighten up people. My goal here is to help new trawler buyers. I deal with many people day in and day out who have no clue of where to begin. I'm simply trying to give them some direction. Oh and by the way, I own a 40 ft. twin screw so I do know a little about what I am talking about.

But if you want to split hairs on the the fuel consumption of a single vs. twin, go ahead; you obviuosly have nothing else better to do..

Well, I think we have the Trifecta winner. Arrogant - Lighten up people. Condescending - you obviuosly have nothing else better to do.. AND advertising.
Does it get any better?* "I am the best, I know all, see all, do all.

Put me in the offended column. I'm not here to be lectured to.

*


-- Edited by 2bucks on Monday 19th of October 2009 06:52:06 PM