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Old 06-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #21
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How are you at welding? Looks like you will have to either haul to replace the 20+ zincs or find a diver that can do it. I agree with others, there is a lot out there in that price range the you can resell when the time comes.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:10 PM   #22
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OK...the draft is just not practical.I will have to find something else.I still have plenty of time.the pickins are pretty slim right now in Texas and Lousiana.It took us 11 months to find our last boat.And for flyguy...I like to weld and have had to pass test or two on welding.Metal-work is not a hobby, but small doses of it can be fun. This is a really nice forum. Everyone is so curtious and civil compared to others.I'm glad to hopefully cross over to the dark side.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:33 PM   #23
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I think something around 5 or 6 feet is the maintained depth on the ICW.
In theory, maybe. In practice, you have to account for tides. There are several trouble spots. And the shoals move around so the deep place on your chart or plotter may no longer be the deep place.

I managed to find spots less than four feet on my recent trip between Charleston, SC and Florida.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:16 AM   #24
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Well, we hit the Galveston bay area Saturday.It was our first time out with list of boats in hand.We looked at about six.we saw some beautiful boats.The sad thing was,all but one had leaking windows, port holes,doors/companion ways.luckily it was lightly raining so I was glad to see all the leaks without much effort.All but one boat,were just deteriorating from something so simple to fix.cosmetically it was bad enough on all the beautiful wood...but what was lurking behind it? ( I know already) I just can't see how people can let this happen for something that cost so much money.I was almost embarassed for the owners of these vessels.Because while we were standing in the salons of each boat.and while the broker was talking ....little drops of water were catching my attention all around.On a lighter note.The wife was impressed on the amount of room.She really felt at home on some of them.That was a good thing.It was her first time onboard something other than a sailboat.I went into the engine room on every boat with extra lighting to really look deeper into things.Since we are sailors I am not to familiar wth larger diesels.My question is about something that I saw on a m/y with twins.It had water cooled turbos.should I stay away from something like that.I am sure they are not cheap to repair.Or are they pretty reliable (life span length of motor)and more efficient for fuel consumption? And second question is when is over-haul required on engines, other than when it has become obvious? Like age or hours.Or just run them until things start to take a turn in the wrong direction?....Thanks
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:16 PM   #25
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From Pascoe's book:
"Turbo chargers are the Achilles heel of the marine diesel, proving to be the most frequently overhauled and replaced piece of equipment. That is becaues they get so hot, are subject to severe vibration, and is the last item in the lubricating oil scheme, so they are lubed with the hottest oil. Thus, turbo bearings most commonly fail."
You didn't give details of the boat or engines, but twin turbos to me means planing and not trawlering. I think I've seen some folks mention removing turbos, but as I recall it's not cost effective.

The more impotant factor is that the turbo-diesels you looked at are likely "high-perfomance" engines. Pascoe - based on his observations on many hundreds of engines - came up with a ratio that compares HP to engine displacement (in cubic inches), and concluded that "ratios greater than 1:1 indicate an engine thas has been souped up too much, and is very likely to suffer reduced service life".

There are some threads about the engine life of high-speed diesels on THT (note that most boat owners are operating individually as a "one rat study"). If you have questions about the reliability of a specific engine, BoatDiesel.com would be a good place to look (and ask).
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:46 PM   #26
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yes...I'm sorry not to give details on boat and engines.I did not want to be too lengthy in my comments.This particular boat was not a trawler.It just happened to be the only boat that was maintained.Everything else had too much water coming in for us.the turbos appeared to be water cooled though.But I guess that does not really matter ,if it is the Achilles heel of marine diesel. It was just a very general question about turbos.It seems the line between trawlers and similar style boats is sometimes blurred....at least for me.....since I am sailboat guy.But the hull was a dead giveaway. I will try to keep my post limited to trawler questions.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:50 PM   #27
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Ah, don't worry about being lengthy!

And as previous threads have supported, trawlering (at least on this forum) is pretty inclusive - and there are many members who have twin-turbodiesels and often run above displacement speeds!
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #28
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And second question is when is over-haul required on engines, other than when it has become obvious? Like age or hours.Or just run them until things start to take a turn in the wrong direction?....Thanks
Marine diesels, at least in recreational service, don't have TBOs (Time Between Overhaul) requirements like you get on aircraft engines and the like. They do have manufacturer's recommended service intervals which should be followed. And engine makes and models that have been around for a long time will have built up a reputation for having a service life of some average number of hours.

For example, the venerable Ford Lehman 120, an engine based on the Ford of England Dorset truck/industrial/agricultural engine designed in the 1950s and marinized in the 60s by Lehman in New Jersey, is said to have a service life in recreational boat applications of 12,000 to 14,000 hours before the core of the engine will need an overhaul. This is assuming the engine is operated per the manufacturer/Lehman recommendations and is serviced and maintained properly. Other types of engines may have average service lives of less hours.

It is said that the modern, high-speed, turboed diesels used in many newer boats today have average service lives considerably shorter than the old thumpers like Lehmans, Perkins, etc. Whether this is actually true or not is something I don't know. My only marine diesel experience has been with the FL120. Boating is notorious for blowing things out of proportion, so the "high speed, hot turbo engines have short lives" thing may be more myth than reality. But you would want input from a professional engine/propulsion system person like Rick B on this forum or an experienced diesel shop before you made any judgments on this issue.

There's no telling when water pumps, fuel pumps, injectors, injection pumps, starters, hoses, heat exchangers, etc. might begin to falter or fail outright. These issues will need to be dealt with when they come up. Some can be anticipated, which is why most operators change out wear items like flexible pump impellers, drive belts, zincs, etc. on a regular schedule. Other items, particularly hoses, can be monitored for potential deterioration. But some things--- like a fuel injector pipe that suddenly develops a crack or pinhole--- can't be anticipated.

When shopping for a boat the way the engine(s) were treated by previous owners is far more important than the total number of hours on the engine(s). For example, given the choice between a Ford Lehman 120 with 3,000 hours on it but with a questionable or poor previous owner record and a Ford Lehman 120 with 7000 hours on it that was operated, serviced, and maintained properly by a conscientious owner, I would take the boat with the 7000 hour engine, all else being equal.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:48 PM   #29
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Marin said: "When shopping for a boat the way the engine(s) were treated by previous owners is far more important than the total number of hours on the engine(s). For example, given the choice between a Ford Lehman 120 with 3,000 hours on it but with a questionable or poor previous owner record and a Ford Lehman 120 with 7000 hours on it that was operated, serviced, and maintained properly by a conscientious owner, I would take the boat with the 7000 hour engine, all else being equal."

Got me curious. I went to Yachtworld, and searched on trawlers, 1985 and older,up to 36 feet, keyword "Lehman". Turned up a slew of boats, from MT/CHB to a lot of GB32's, all with 120 Lehmans -- and you might be surprised at the hours that are quoted. A couple of mentions of rebuilds, and a few where hours aren't mentioned (I wonder why) but the majority are only in the 2500-3600 range, the highest stated being 4400 hours. Either the old boats never got used that much, or owners are turning back the clock. If there is a 7,000 hour boat out there, it isn't for sale. BTW ... I have ~4400 on my MT34.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #30
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Marin said: "When shopping for a boat the way the engine(s) were treated by previous owners is far more important than the total number of hours on the engine(s). For example, given the choice between a Ford Lehman 120 with 3,000 hours on it but with a questionable or poor previous owner record and a Ford Lehman 120 with 7000 hours on it that was operated, serviced, and maintained properly by a conscientious owner, I would take the boat with the 7000 hour engine, all else being equal."

Got me curious. I went to Yachtworld, and searched on trawlers, 1985 and older,up to 36 feet, keyword "Lehman". Turned up a slew of boats, from MT/CHB to a lot of GB32's, all with 120 Lehmans -- and you might be surprised at the hours that are quoted. A couple of mentions of rebuilds, and a few where hours aren't mentioned (I wonder why) but the majority are only in the 2500-3600 range, the highest stated being 4400 hours. Either the old boats never got used that much, or owners are turning back the clock. If there is a 7,000 hour boat out there, it isn't for sale. BTW ... I have ~4400 on my MT34.
Shouldn't be all that suprising...the average number of hours of use put on a boat is between 100-200 hrs a year.

Unless you are retired and living aboard or cruising full time..the chances of putting on more than that are pretty low. Even a loop may only be 1000-1500 hours unless you do the mega 7000 mile one.

And if you only went UP to 36 feet...well I think 36 foot trawlers are generally local boats...I think full time cruisers/liveaboards are generally up a notch...so I woulsd expect lower engine hrs. Not saying 36 footers can/aren't...just generally for longer cruising....
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:01 PM   #31
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Our boat was 25 years old when we bought it, and the engines had, according to the selling broker, "about 1200 hours on them." The Hobbs meters had been replaced 250 hours earlier so we were initially suspicious of the low hours on a 25 year old boat. But the engines checked out great on the engine survey and oil analysis and we were later able to determine that the 1200 hours in 25 years figure was accurate.

In talking to people up here who boated for years in SFO bay, which is where our boat spent its whole life until we bought it, we were told that low hours on an older boat in that area is not automaticalliy an indication of long periods of neglect. There's not that far you can go down there, they said. Back and forth across the bay and up the rivers and that's it. So it's very possible to use a boat quite a bit for a lot of years in that area but not rack up a lot of hours, which after going over the previous owner records and notes had obviously been the case with our boat.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:24 PM   #32
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Got me curious. I went to Yachtworld, and searched on trawlers...and you might be surprised at the hours that are quoted...
Well, keep in mind that every single piece of information was put there by a broker. I would hazard a guess that the majority of brokers would put 2000 hours down for a 5000 hour boat if there was a major overhaul at 3000 hours. Or even a minor overhaul. Or perhaps an oil change. Or the rumour that there might have been an oil change.

As others on this thread have pointed out, there are no "rules" when it comes to what to look for - there are just a lot of warning signs of potential problems. Documentation can be a big help in filling in holes, but it won't establish certainty.

If you have some particular skill, however, the warning sign that everyone else can see might work in your favor. If you are a welder (as the OP stated), or a diesel engine mechanic, or maybe you have a couple of teenage sons who are budding craftsmen and will work for free (OK, that last one's a stretch) then maybe you do the work yourself to add value.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:44 PM   #33
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Well, keep in mind that e maybe you do the work yourself to add value.
So getting involved in trawlering should be with the intention to 'add value'?
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:53 PM   #34
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So getting involved in trawlering should be with the intention to 'add value'?
Egads, no - but it CAN be a route to end up with a trawler (heck, anything) that you couldn't afford/justify purchasing at the outset.

(added) It can also be a route that destroys value if you don't complete the work, or if your efforts result in something that is not valued by subsequent buyers. I'm going to pull a number out of thin air and estimate that less than 10% of "project" purchases actually end up increasing the value of the project. And if you count the market cost of the "free labor", it's probably 1% - if that.
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:01 PM   #35
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I think that owners LIKE to think they use their boats a lot till they look at the hour meters...

I'll bet there's more "truth stretching cruisers" out there than flat out lying brokers...most people just never use their boats as much as they think or want to.
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:07 PM   #36
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I'll bet there's more "truth stretching cruisers" out there than flat out lying brokers...
That would an interesting comparison indeed!

If only there were a way to get an accurate count of either group...

Of course, there are also the owners who - when selling the boat - mention that the hours aren't really that high, but they have to have the panel on when trolling, or they left the key on for a week while doing maintenance, or...
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:31 PM   #37
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I think that owners LIKE to think they use their boats a lot till they look at the hour meters...

I'll bet there's more "truth stretching cruisers" out there than flat out lying brokers...most people just never use their boats as much as they think or want to.
A lot of truth to that. On our recent cruise to the Bahamas over a month we put around 20 hours on our engines. At the speeds we run, it doesn't take long to get there. Then we slow down an pull the dinghy for the short hops 10-15 miles between cays. We will usually stay 2-4 nights before moving on. Not many hours at all.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:45 PM   #38
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Regarding a boat's value and how what you do to it affects it's value.......

I don't think you can ever add value in terms of monetary value with a boat unless its a collector boat like a Hacker Craft or Gar Wood runabout of the like. People say, "I sold my boat for more than I paid for it," but in most cases that's numbers of dollars, not dollar value. Our boat sold new in 1973 for less than half what we paid for it in 1998. But if you calculate the difference in dollars adjusted for inflation and other factors, our boat lost a fair amount of it's actual value during that 25 years. At the time we bought our GB36, new ones were selling for a bit over $300k equipped to be usable. That is almost ten times what they sold for new in 1973.

So with relatively few exceptions, a recreational boat almost always loses value over time no matter what you do to it.

The other factor affecting value is the selling price envelope for a given make, model, and year. We are considering having our old GB36 completely redone. New engines, generator, hull and superstruture totally reworked, new interior components throughout, etc. The cost of doing this will far exceed the current total dollar value of the boat. But if we do it, we won't be able to sell our boat (if we wanted to) for any more than the top end of the price envelope for 1973 GB36s.

So the "added value" of having the boat totally reworked will not be in dollars because we'll never see them back, but in what the boat is to us, how the overhaul enhances the value of the experience we get from using the boat.
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:01 AM   #39
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".most people just never use their boats as much as they think or want to."

This is why PM and in particular how the boat was stored is usually of more concern than just hours.

Northern boats that are yanked for the winter have a far better chance of having a good usefull engine , because of the winter layup.

Where the engine is serviced , oil changed , antifreeze changed , and if not pickled , at least the exhaust is usually sealed.

Southern boats suffer from theit easy location.

This is probably part of why FL boats are 1/3 or 1/2 price less than northern boats.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #40
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Regarding a boat's value and how what you do to it affects it's value.......

I don't think you can ever add value in terms of monetary value with a boat unless its a collector boat like a Hacker Craft or Gar Wood runabout of the like. People say, "I sold my boat for more than I paid for it," but in most cases that's numbers of dollars, not dollar value. Our boat sold new in 1973 for less than half what we paid for it in 1998. But if you calculate the difference in dollars adjusted for inflation and other factors, our boat lost a fair amount of it's actual value during that 25 years. At the time we bought our GB36, new ones were selling for a bit over $300k equipped to be usable. That is almost ten times what they sold for new in 1973.

So with relatively few exceptions, a recreational boat almost always loses value over time no matter what you do to it.

The other factor affecting value is the selling price envelope for a given make, model, and year. We are considering having our old GB36 completely redone. New engines, generator, hull and superstruture totally reworked, new interior components throughout, etc. The cost of doing this will far exceed the current total dollar value of the boat. But if we do it, we won't be able to sell our boat (if we wanted to) for any more than the top end of the price envelope for 1973 GB36s.

So the "added value" of having the boat totally reworked will not be in dollars because we'll never see them back, but in what the boat is to us, how the overhaul enhances the value of the experience we get from using the boat.
You are 100% correct in that statement. You will never see the full value of a refit if you sell the boat. The value of a refit comes from using the boat, with the confidence that all is "right" with the boat, and that you are going to have less to deal with for a certain period of time.

Our 2001 4788 is a prime example. The average market price for this boat is around $225K. With great examples being upwards from that and poor examples lower. The "envelope" for this model right now is in my estimate between say $170 and $260K

We bought our boat for $130K as a "project boat" The boat suffered from defered maintenance. The engines had high blowby, the generator had issues, the list goes on and on. Typical laundry list of a boat that had been purchased new and just driven.

We repowered the boat with reman engines, put a new generator in, caught up with 100% of the defered maintenance, and basically brought the boat up to 100% new condition. As part of this, we added several systems to ther boat including waste treatment, heat, satellite communications, watermaker, etc... A long list of new "stuff"

I did none of the work on this project. I have the most of the skills but I recognized up front that I do not have the time. We hired a first class large shipyard to do the work.

Our total refit cost was something over $150K. Since I bought some of the parts myself I don't have the full numbers right here. I think I spent another $20K or so on parts I had shipped to the shipyard for installation.

So, now I'm into the boat for $280-300K+. I would never get that out of the boat if I sold it today.

But....

I'll keep the boat and get the benefit of owning a basically new boat. One of the best benefits is a lack of suprises. I'm not going to walk up to my boat in the near future and have Mr. Big Bill waiting for me to pay up. I can drive the boat, and keep up with maintenance, I do not have to catch up.
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