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Old 05-29-2014, 01:05 PM   #21
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Terrible avoidable accident, the operators life will be changed forever.
Any proven facts that can show where it was avoidable so we all can learn????

While not good...the jury/investigation is still out to what actually happened...

Most everything else is speculation...

If it comes back BWI and or/manslaughter...pile on/... till then the participants are innocent till proven guilty.
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:20 PM   #22
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I see we are in confrontational mode now.
Yes, obvious damage to front of the boat shows he was traveling at a speed not safe due to limited visibility.

The arresting officer smelled alcohol on the operators breath which allowed for taking a blood sample. Sure maybe he took cough medicine...

This is a forum which last I looked it is about posting our THOUGHTS!

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Any proven facts that can show where it was avoidable so we all can learn????

While not good...the jury/investigation is still out to what actually happened...

Most everything else is speculation...

If it comes back BWI and or/manslaughter...pile on/... till then the participants are innocent till proven guilty.
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:26 PM   #23
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Questions aren't confrontational any more than news reports are accurate.

Damage (especially one quick internet photo) doesn't prove speed unless you are a trained boat accident investigator who has done the forensic calculations.

Alcohol may have been involved but not necessarily a contributing factor.

Just hoping that people on my jury aren't so quick to decide...just MY thoughts....
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:35 PM   #24
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This does not require forensic specialist to know a women has been killed and the front of the boat is missing a large part of it to know that they were not traveling at 7 knots. Thus he was at a speed not suitable for the conditions.
So yes tragic and avoidable.

This is a FORUM not a court of law.

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Questions aren't confrontational any more than news reports are accurate.

Damage (especially one quick internet photo) doesn't prove speed unless you are a trained boat accident investigator who has done the forensic calculations.

Alcohol may have been involved but not necessarily a contributing factor.

Just hoping that people on my jury aren't so quick to decide...just MY thoughts....
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:09 PM   #25
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This does not require forensic specialist to know a women has been killed and the front of the boat is missing a large part of it to know that they were not traveling at 7 knots. Thus he was at a speed not suitable for the conditions.
So yes tragic and avoidable.

This is a FORUM not a court of law.
Thankfully based on what I read....
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:09 PM   #26
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I'll go along with "innocent until proven guilty," but I have to say what little evidence we have (admittedly much of it from the notoriously flawed media) doesn't make a good case for the smaller boat.

1) Colliding with an ANCHORED boat.
2) Anchored boat reported showing appropriate lighting.
3) Going fast enough to damage the bow AND kill a passenger.
4) Going that fast late at night.
5) Going that fast in a place that we know, from first-hand reports, was crowded.
6) Sufficient evidence of drinking that police took a blood alcohol level test.

Take all that together with our own personal experiences of how some boaters behave on the water, particularly less experienced small boat operators.

Certainly this is not enough to convict anybody. But I'd be willing to bet a fairly decent sum on the eventual outcome.

This IS a forum, and not a court of law. If anyone has an angle on this that we haven't explored yet, I'd love to hear it. I would really like to be proven wrong on this one.
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Old 05-29-2014, 04:08 PM   #27
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I'll go along with "innocent until proven guilty," but I have to say what little evidence we have (admittedly much of it from the notoriously flawed media) doesn't make a good case for the smaller boat.

1) Colliding with an ANCHORED boat.
2) Anchored boat reported showing appropriate lighting.
3) Going fast enough to damage the bow AND kill a passenger.
4) Going that fast late at night.
5) Going that fast in a place that we know, from first-hand reports, was crowded.
6) Sufficient evidence of drinking that police took a blood alcohol level test.

Take all that together with our own personal experiences of how some boaters behave on the water, particularly less experienced small boat operators.

Certainly this is not enough to convict anybody. But I'd be willing to bet a fairly decent sum on the eventual outcome.

This IS a forum, and not a court of law. If anyone has an angle on this that we haven't explored yet, I'd love to hear it. I would really like to be proven wrong on this one.
To be fair...and you do a reasonable analysis and would probably win the bet...

1. anchored boat was reported to be showing proper lighting...we need to verify though that it was visible from the approaching vessel as many anchor lights aren't.
2. a person can lose their footing, slip, hit their head on a sharp object and die....any speed or just rocking can cause that...forensics necessary.
3. Actual speed undetermined, on scene evidence not enough to determine "safe speed" only the result which may be enough in the long run but not for now.
4. Haven't seen a definitive crash location with forensic drawing placing traffic surrounding accident.... picture of boat in distance wouldn't preclude a reasonable speed which could have easily cause the damage in the other picture (doesn't take much).
5. The police would take a blood alcohol with ANY amount suspected...just because it's present doesn't automatically make it a "causal factor".

I have my reasons for being picky about facts...if people want to speculate fine...but don't expect it to go unopposed (not you Capt Tom as you stated right up front that guilt is TBD).
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Old 05-29-2014, 04:18 PM   #28
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I have my reasons for being picky about facts...if people want to speculate fine...but don't expect it to go unopposed.
Fair enough. You've always been a voice of reason here and I can't disagree with a single point.

I once saw a pretty bad head wound on someone who just slipped on a step going from the helm to the cockpit.

I sincerely hope, for the sake of all involved, that it turns out to be something that simple. I'd still bet against it though.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:38 PM   #29
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Definitely not a Gulfstar 36. It looks like drinking was involved in NJ BUI enforcement is pretty good.
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:09 PM   #30
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If the guy who posted his position is right (welcome, by the way!), that is way out of the ICW or any other course someone would be taking north. We have anchored there many many times, it is a huge anchorage. I can see where someone not paying attention would miss a small anchor light in a wide open space; but if they were all the way over there, it's just another demerit in their case along with the not paying attention part.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:10 PM   #31
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The arresting officer smelled alcohol on the operators breath which allowed for taking a blood sample.
That was a good trick on the officers part, since ethanol has no odor. As has been pointed out in court in DUI cases time and time again.

But either way it looks now the the vast majority if not all the blame for this will fall on the operator of the smaller vessel.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:36 PM   #32
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All the more reason to upgrade those dim old anchor lights with a bright LED anchor light. I'm not saying the trawler was in anyway at fault. I also don't know it's entirely possible the trawler had an LED anchor light. I'm just saying I have seen some pretty dim old lighting on all kinds of boats at night.
If the guy in the 23' was drunk enough all the lighting in the world other than flashing strobed blue lights (LEO) might not have gotten his attention.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:42 PM   #33
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My anchor light is about 32 feet above waterline. Good idea is to have some low-level lighting nearer eye level.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:23 PM   #34
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Sure looks like a Prairie 36 or Atlantic 37 (same as mine.)

I use those lawn LED lights, or leave on the deck lights, when anchored any place where other boats may miss the anchor light way up on the mast.

Glad to hear those on board the trawler were OK, but still, tragic loss for all involved.
I agree I leave my indirect LED cockpit and my upper helm red floor LED lighting on when anchored. In addition to a very bright LED anchor light.
Even with all that and the interior LED's on we were tagged (hit) by a drifting boat full of drunks behind Long Beach Island off the Jersey ICW last 4th's of July. No injuries to either boat or occupants.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:29 PM   #35
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All the more reason to upgrade those dim old anchor lights with a bright LED anchor light. I'm not saying the trawler was in anyway at fault. I also don't know it's entirely possible the trawler had an LED anchor light. I'm just saying I have seen some pretty dim old lighting on all kinds of boats at night.
If the guy in the 23' was drunk enough all the lighting in the world other than flashing strobed blue lights (LEO) might not have gotten his attention.
Bill
I'm always amazed how dark people keep their boats at anchor. One dim anchor light up high off the water is not much protection from having some one run into you at night. With all the different LED lights available these days I see no reason not to have some deck lights lit when ever you're at anchor.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:32 PM   #36
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Even with all that and the interior LED's on we were tagged (hit) by a drifting boat full of drunks behind Long Beach Island off the Jersey ICW last 4th's of July. No injuries to either boat or occupants.
Bill
Did they spill their beers? :-)
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:37 PM   #37
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Did they spill their beers? :-)
No they were actually laughing too hard. My wife and I didn't think it was funny at all but we let them go. I should have reported them to the NJ State Police marine unit they were within eyesight of us. But I figured I was once young drunk and stupid I just didn't operate any motorized vehichle when I was.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:38 PM   #38
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My anchor light is about 32 feet above waterline. Good idea is to have some low-level lighting nearer eye level.
From ColRegs rule 30:
(c) A vessel at anchor may, and a vessel of 100 meters and more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:47 PM   #39
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Good idea is to have some low-level lighting nearer eye level.


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Old 05-29-2014, 09:02 PM   #40
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I wonder how much reliance was placed on electronic navigation?

Set GPS and autopilot.............
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