Transatlantic cross in single thread Trawler

[Chrisjs]

Our Cummins 6BTA (280HP) was spec'd for up to 250 hours between oil changes. That equates to 1,750nm at 7.5kt. On a continuous non-stop run there would be a need to add oil but not necessarily to change oil/filter. We did run non-stop for 7 days (168 hrs) without an oil change, though we usually changed at shorter intervals because we could and the engine was not running continuously

 

[HopCar]

Bigslick, I see that was your first post, Welcome Aboard.

I see Richard on Dauntless has chimed in. There is no one more qualified to comment on single engine ocean crossing than Richard.

He has crossed the Atlantic twice in a single engine 42 Kadey Krogan. He has also done some long passages single handed.

Richard drops breadcrumbs where ever he goes and you can see them here.
https://share.delorme.com/dauntless?doMobile=1

 

[menzies]

And it most definitely did not all go smoothly. Read the book, then evaluate. Now, they've solved the most frequent problem which was with their stabilizers. But there were many very experienced boaters plus an engineer available. Notice that they haven't repeated this.

Actually they did just this past spring. The third time I believe - 2004, 2007 and 2017.

http://www.nordhavn.com/news/newsletter/april_2017/nap.php

 

[Wxx3]

And it most definitely did not all go smoothly. Read the book, then evaluate. Now, they've solved the most frequent problem which was with their stabilizers. But there were many very experienced boaters plus an engineer available. Notice that they haven't repeated this.

That book steered me away from Nordhvns.

And it made me very leery of hydraulic stabilizers in general.

 

[Crusty Chief]

Was just looking online at some Selene trawlers in 40-50' range that have a 2500 mm range and are advertised as Transatlantic capable. But most of the ones I see are single screw.

There's no way in hell I'd go out into the middle of the ocean with a single engine! I'd be scared to even try with twin diesels.

I'm just wondering what the consensus is on that. Would you have to be a master mechanic with every imaginable spare part to even consider that? Or do people do this all the time?

I would add this, Just because the boat is capable doesn't mean the Crew is. Our Selene is a very capable boat, but we have no desire to cross oceans on it. Twenty years in the Navy may have something to do with it, but day after day after day at 6-7 knots is boring no matter how you look at it.

Having cruised her now for over 2 years, put over 1000 hrs and 6000 miles, we like being able to plan our next stop within 12 hours. She is a very capable boat that is safe to operate in "Most conditions" provided the crew is capable.

Relying on others to fill crew slots doesn't work for us. Have met too many folks on Nordies, Selene's, KK and a few other "Ocean Trawlers" and very few actually cross oceans with them. But they almost all agree on feeling safer on these type of boats should the need arise.

My hat goes off to the handful of people who have crossed oceans in a power boat. The preparation needed to accomplish this daunting task doesn't happen overnight. Not only is the boat prepared as best as possible, but the crew is prepared maybe more so. A certain mindset is needed as well as a very good understanding of weather and what its effects can have on the ocean.

Now with regards to crossing an ocean with a boat that has twins, that requires a lot of fuel. Dont know of any manufactured boat with twins 50 ft or less, that is capable of crossing the Atlantic let alone the Pacific. Fuel needed for a long trip takes up a lot space, that's why the single mains are so popular. A small get home engine may give you a bit of confidence, but get in rough seas and try to maintain a course at 2-3 knots is another story.

Ok, Ill get off my soapbox.

Cheers, Crusty

 

[Wxx3]

Our Cummins 6BTA (280HP) was spec'd for up to 250 hours between oil changes. That equates to 1,750nm at 7.5kt. On a continuous non-stop run there would be a need to add oil but not necessarily to change oil/filter. We did run non-stop for 7 days (168 hrs) without an oil change, though we usually changed at shorter intervals because we could and the engine was not running continuously

Exactly.

Manufacturers spec oil changes based on "normal" use. In 250 hours, that may mean a couple hours use each time. That equates to about 100 cold starts.

Cold starts are the key. That's when most engine wear happens, as well as oil contamination.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the planet, manufacturers used to not treat their customers like idiots. They would explain the range of use and have recommended frequencies based on that use.

BMW may still do that in their cars ghost tell you when it's time to change the oil.
At least in the 90's when they came out with that system, or was pretty much weighted to the amount of time the engine was running and still cold after start up.
If you did short city driving, 20 minutes at a time, you'd be changing the oil every few thousand miles. If you were commuting 200 miles a day, the change frequency was more like 10,000 miles.

Then just like that, the dinosaurs were extinct and were replaced by lawyers. I think it was around 1975.

For the last 20 years it's all lawyers and bean counters, sorry, accountants.

So in answer of the long forgotten question, I do believe I ran that little Ford Lehman 21 days straight this last time.

I did stop the engine the first time in the middle of the North Atlantic so we could go swimming in 14,000 foot deep water.
I'm not sure I'd do that again.

But I'm sure I'll never stop to change the damn oil. That's just cruising for a bruising.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Beware, stupid question ahead:
Any example of somebody doing this single? Even if exceptional sailboat race single handed are not uncommon. Even if the speed is not the same, any example of someone that did this in a trawler???

L.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Exactly.

Manufacturers spec oil changes based on "normal" use. In 250 hours, that may mean a couple hours use each time. That equates to about 100 cold starts.

Cold starts are the key. That's when most engine wear happens, as well as oil contamination.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the planet, manufacturers used to not treat their customers like idiots. They would explain the range of use and have recommended frequencies based on that use.

BMW may still do that in their cars ghost tell you when it's time to change the oil.
At least in the 90's when they came out with that system, or was pretty much weighted to the amount of time the engine was running and still cold after start up.
If you did short city driving, 20 minutes at a time, you'd be changing the oil every few thousand miles. If you were commuting 200 miles a day, the change frequency was more like 10,000 miles.

Then just like that, the dinosaurs were extinct and were replaced by lawyers. I think it was around 1975.

For the last 20 years it's all lawyers and bean counters, sorry, accountants.

So in answer of the long forgotten question, I do believe I ran that little Ford Lehman 21 days straight this last time.

I did stop the engine the first time in the middle of the North Atlantic so we could go swimming in 14,000 foot deep water.
I'm not sure I'd do that again.

But I'm sure I'll never stop to change the damn oil. That's just cruising for a bruising.

My car has a recommended oil change of 30000km or 2 years. 30000km would mean more 300h at the legal speed limit here or a bit less if you have an heavy foot and its normal cruise rpm is twice the one of my boat. Even if it is not comparable, and I have no experience in ocean crossing, one thing I am quite sure is that changing oil would not be my main concern while out of nowhere mid way. Never heard about major engine failure because oil was change at 150h instead of 100h, especially when the engine is constantly running at optimal temp and rpm.

L.

 

[BandB]

Actually they did just this past spring. The third time I believe - 2004, 2007 and 2017.

NAP

Let me correct. Never another one of that magnitude nor boats as small as 40' to my knowledge. 5 boats this year.

 

[BandB]

That book steered me away from Nordhvns.

And it made me very leery of hydraulic stabilizers in general.

Well, I think lessons were learned but it certainly would have scared me from trying to cross in an under 50' Nordhavn.

As to hydraulic stabilizers, Nordhavn just didn't yet have their act together.

 

[Wxx3]

Well, I think lessons were learned but it certainly would have scared me from trying to cross in an under 50' Nordhavn.

As to hydraulic stabilizers, Nordhavn just didn't yet have their act together.

I admit I have not spent as much time following Nordhavn adventures in the last 3 years, but up to that time, pretty much every long distance account i read, they had some trouble with the hydraulic stabilizers.

 

[AusCan]

Probably not, because generally they do not have the range to make a ocean crossing.

If we look at specific models there are actually very few production boats with twin engines in the sub 50' size that have the endurance.

Hatteras 48 LRC comes to mind, but even there I'm iffy on that boats capability for a pacific crossing.

A friend is preparing his 44 foot twin engined boat for crossing the Atlantic next year. It's a Lagoon 440. Does that count?

 

[Simi 60]

A friend is preparing his 44 foot twin engined boat for crossing the Atlantic next year. It's a Lagoon 440. Does that count?

Absolutely and no stabilizers required.
To me, a requirement for stabilizers, paravanes, rolling chocks etc is proof of design flaw and yes, I admit, I have a vessel with a design flaw.

If money was no object it would be a suitably sized multihull in a nanosecond.

 

[menzies]

Beware, stupid question ahead:
Any example of somebody doing this single? Even if exceptional sailboat race single handed are not uncommon. Even if the speed is not the same, any example of someone that did this in a trawler???

L.

You mean crossing on their own with a single engine?

Many have done it.

Here is one that just finished it - and also visited my old home yacht club in Lough Swilly!

MV Dirona

Or do you mean single handed crew wise?

 

[FF]

Just curious, Do they have to change oil mid trip?

With a well broken in engine , there is little risk of extending the oil change interval.

One question tho would be when to add oil to make up for normal oil consumption.

Happily the Murphy folks have a gauge that mounts in the pan to show oil level of an operating engine.

Industrial sized engines like DD series 50 or 60 can be idled to use marks on the dipstick to show oil level.

And of course for the really nervous changing oil resivoirs as done on huge gensets is always another choice.

A wing engine needs a power boat folding prop , not a sailboat prop for best operation.

Hyde still makes them.

Single engine offshore?

Works for world commerce quite well.

 

[Bay Pelican]

And it most definitely did not all go smoothly. Read the book, then evaluate. Now, they've solved the most frequent problem which was with their stabilizers. But there were many very experienced boaters plus an engineer available. Notice that they haven't repeated this.

I am thankful for the 2004 Atlantic Rally. The problems with the stabilizers was across all three major brand lines (I think) and resulted in future stabilizer installs being beefed up. My current stabilizers were installed inn 2012 and are much more durable than those installed prior to the rally.

 

[Lou_tribal]

You mean crossing on their own with a single engine?

Many have done it.

Here is one that just finished it - and also visited my old home yacht club in Lough Swilly!

MV Dirona

Or do you mean single handed crew wise?

I mean single man crew crossing on a trawler, ever heard about this?

L

 

[Bay Pelican]

Marty, I believe you are right on that. I just remember they were worry about the little guy having enough fuel for one part of the trip.

In any case. I was a cool video.

Cheers.

H.

Remember Nordhavn took a 40 footer around the world as a publicity stunt. For the Atlantic Rally the organizers permitted the 40 footer in the rally based on evidence(?) that she had the range without refueling or supplemental fuel bags. If my memory is correct for reasons of convenience (speed) a 62 footer refueled the 40 footer mid-ocean.

Speed being the critical element. With her original tanks (700 gallons) Bay Pelican's range was roughly 2,000 nm at 8 kts, 3,000 at 7 kts and 4,000 at 6 kts, etc.

 

[menzies]

With my unique twins set up I could perhaps squeeze 2500 out of my fuel at 6kts. Its 800KM to Bermuda and 1700KM from there to the Azores. But frankly I would not be remotely interested in doing it in my vessel.

I am interested in doing a Bermuda only trip though, once I have more hours on Sonas. Which would be between 4 and 5 days non-stop.

The northern route - perhaps. But my questions has always been - OK, now I have done that and got the t-shirt, I have to bring her back!

 

[Sugardog]

I would add this, Just because the boat is capable doesn't mean the Crew is. Our Selene is a very capable boat, but we have no desire to cross oceans on it. Twenty years in the Navy may have something to do with it, but day after day after day at 6-7 knots is boring no matter how you look at it.



Having cruised her now for over 2 years, put over 1000 hrs and 6000 miles, we like being able to plan our next stop within 12 hours. She is a very capable boat that is safe to operate in "Most conditions" provided the crew is capable.



Relying on others to fill crew slots doesn't work for us. Have met too many folks on Nordies, Selene's, KK and a few other "Ocean Trawlers" and very few actually cross oceans with them. But they almost all agree on feeling safer on these type of boats should the need arise.



My hat goes off to the handful of people who have crossed oceans in a power boat. The preparation needed to accomplish this daunting task doesn't happen overnight. Not only is the boat prepared as best as possible, but the crew is prepared maybe more so. A certain mindset is needed as well as a very good understanding of weather and what its effects can have on the ocean.



Now with regards to crossing an ocean with a boat that has twins, that requires a lot of fuel. Dont know of any manufactured boat with twins 50 ft or less, that is capable of crossing the Atlantic let alone the Pacific. Fuel needed for a long trip takes up a lot space, that's why the single mains are so popular. A small get home engine may give you a bit of confidence, but get in rough seas and try to maintain a course at 2-3 knots is another story.



Ok, Ill get off my soapbox.



Cheers, Crusty

During my Navy days would much rather be steaming, never got bored with it

 

[BandB]

I admit I have not spent as much time following Nordhavn adventures in the last 3 years, but up to that time, pretty much every long distance account i read, they had some trouble with the hydraulic stabilizers.

They certainly had more than their share. Meanwhile plenty of ocean going vessels have no issues with stabilizers. In over 50,000 nm on many different stabilized boats in the past 5 years (the remainder of our miles in non-stabilized), we've not had a single stabilizer failure. The majority have been Hydraulic stabilizers, probably 40-45,000 Hydraulic and the remainder electric.

I don't know if Nordhavn is beyond their stabilizer issues now or not.

 

[hfoster]

Remember Nordhavn took a 40 footer around the world as a publicity stunt. For the Atlantic Rally the organizers permitted the 40 footer in the rally based on evidence(?) that she had the range without refueling or supplemental fuel bags. If my memory is correct for reasons of convenience (speed) a 62 footer refueled the 40 footer mid-ocean.

Speed being the critical element. With her original tanks (700 gallons) Bay Pelican's range was roughly 2,000 nm at 8 kts, 3,000 at 7 kts and 4,000 at 6 kts, etc.

You are right about the refueling at sea Marty.

Here is the video for those who wish to see it.

Cheers.

H

 

[BandB]

Remember Nordhavn took a 40 footer around the world as a publicity stunt. .

Key words highlighted.

 

[dvd]

Just curious, Do they have to change oil mid trip?

I believe so. They also had to do some injector maintenance en route. They shut down the main engine, ran the wing engine while performing maintenance...

 

[Bay Pelican]

A small get home engine may give you a bit of confidence, but get in rough seas and try to maintain a course at 2-3 knots is another story.


Cheers, Crusty

Bay Pelican has a small get home (27hp) on a separate shaft with a self pitching prop. Using the wing engine Bay Pelican makes 4.5 kts in calm seas.

 

[CDreamer]

Most commercial vessels (other than specialty boats such as tow boats) operate with a single diesel.
Think "Deadliest Catch". Yes, spare parts are essential along with mechanical ability, same as for twins.
I don't have the stats but generally speaking, once a well-maintained diesel engine is running, serious trouble is usually related to bad fuel, so in most cases that affects all the engines anyway.

 

[BandB]

Bay Pelican has a small get home (27hp) on a separate shaft with a self pitching prop. Using the wing engine Bay Pelican makes 4.5 kts in calm seas.

The wing or get home engines seem nice for coastal cruising. However, I have questions about how well they'd work crossing an ocean. It's not just the added time, but the ability to have enough hp to handle the seas. I see strong winds, big seas, no progress. If you're halfway between Bermuda and the Azores, they may get you where you need to be, but I'd hate to have to find out.

 

[Wxx3]

The wing or get home engines seem nice for coastal cruising. However, I have questions about how well they'd work crossing an ocean. It's not just the added time, but the ability to have enough hp to handle the seas. I see strong winds, big seas, no progress. If you're halfway between Bermuda and the Azores, they may get you where you need to be, but I'd hate to have to find out.

Here's my take:
They add to full consumption, i guess about 10%
They would not solve a fuel issue. Which is far more likely than a main engine or transmission problem.
Probably 5 years down the road when i needed it, it would not work.
Lastly, why don't any commercial boats have them???

Get home engines were a marketing tool that Nordhavn invented to differentiate their product.
It worked very well in that capacity.

 

[ksanders]

Here's my take:
They add to full consumption, i guess about 10%
They would not solve a fuel issue. Which is far more likely than a main engine or transmission problem.
Probably 5 years down the road when i needed it, it would not work.
Lastly, why don't any commercial boats have them???

Get home engines were a marketing tool that Nordhavn invented to differentiate their product.
It worked very well in that capacity.

Some thoughts...

Even if you never need your "get home" engine, having one adds peace of mind.

Sometimes peace of mind is all that separates folks that set forth, and folks that stay in port.

 

[Nightsky]

Think about what you are saying.

If you would NOT get bored, you and/or your boat are not ready to cross an ocean.

Because the first rule is having the boat ready and prepared.

Therefore my main preparation is to make sure i have enough books to read, games to play and videos to watch.

Stress will kill you faster than the ocean.[/QUOTE

I have to agree with Richard on this. When you have the boat running sweet there is very little you need to do other than watch where you are going. In my previous life as an offshore tuna fisherman we often did 40 to 60 day trips between Port calls. On some of those trips we would travel non-stop anywhere between 5 to 15 days to get to the fishing grounds or back to Port often with very little traffic and nothing to do no fish to catch so boredom could set in very quickly. During those times I would have to find things to do to keep from falling asleep and reading was my go-to activity between cursory glance at the engine panel or Electronics or an engine room Walkabout or going out on Deck to chat with the crew.