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Old 02-22-2019, 04:03 PM   #21
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No part of self righting is a gimmick, ..speak with any naval architect, it’s not very easy or very common to design a boat with self righting abilities....They are few and far between...Also “going on your merry way “ wasn’t the claim, surviving a rouge wave and remaining safe inside ( maybe a bit banged up) while waiting for rescue is preferred to floating around while your boat sinks ...
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:11 PM   #22
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No part of self righting is a gimmick, ..speak with any naval architect, itís not very easy or very common to design a boat with self righting abilities....They are few and far between...Also ďgoing on your merry way ď wasnít the claim, surviving a rouge wave and remaining safe inside ( maybe a bit banged up) while waiting for rescue is preferred to floating around while your boat sinks ...
I've had my coursework on the topic as well, but far from an expert. Interestingly enough the engineers and a naval architects I spoke to were mixed in their opinions. The majority were impressed with the righting. A couple were impressed with other aspects more then the righting. Two felt the test didn't truly show what would happen in bad conditions, one of those two actually there witnessing the demonstration. However, one who actually saw the drawings and detail felt the boat's ability to stay upright and to protect equipment and persons aboard was the best they'd seen on a boat that size.

Almost all though felt like with the design and construction of the boat, it being flipped was extremely unlikely so the righting ability not likely to ever really happen in real life. That was not intended by them to be a slight against the boat but praise for the overall construction and the center of gravity and the balance the boat had.

I'm hoping we never find out how it works in a real situation. To my knowledge, no owners have so far experienced anything requiring it to right itself. However, they have consistently praised the boat. If I was a potential buyer of a boat like Elling, I'd strongly consider buying Elling but it would be for many reasons other than it's righting ability.

There are a lot of reasons to consider the boat and sometimes the righting demonstration leads one away from all those other reasons. This thread was about seaworthiness and it's seaworthiness is impressive and that's without talking about a rogue wave flipping it, but it's addressing how it performs in very rough seas.

However, the righting demonstration got the boat a lot of attention and probably led many to then look at it and find out all it's other attributes, those far more likely to benefit them in actual use. I'm personally more interested in it's ability to handle rough seas without capsizing and it excels there.
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:53 PM   #23
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You have pretty described Tony's Fleming 65 "Venture" which has crossed many oceans.


But have they? Iím not so sure. There are two boats, Venture 1 and Venture 2. I think one is US based and the other EU based. I actually donít think they have the range. Maybe they could do the atlantic island hop. Newfoundland to Greenland, Greenland to Iceland, iceland to the Faros. I know they went the other way as far as Iceland, but thatís not that far. I think a Pacific crossing would be out.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:29 PM   #24
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But have they? Iím not so sure. There are two boats, Venture 1 and Venture 2. I think one is US based and the other EU based. I actually donít think they have the range. Maybe they could do the atlantic island hop. Newfoundland to Greenland, Greenland to Iceland, iceland to the Faros. I know they went the other way as far as Iceland, but thatís not that far. I think a Pacific crossing would be out.
The 65' has 2000 nm range conservatively at 8 knots and can slow down and increase that. The 100% calculated range at 8 knots is just over 2500 nm. 7.5 knots at 5 gph.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:10 PM   #25
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About 3 years ago I spent some time on an E4 at the dock, but have never been out in the ocean on one. They are definitely nice, well built boats, With a well thought out interior. IMO for the price point there were better options out there. I also remember the engine room space being tight, which didn’t make a lot of sense for a long range cruiser. And, it had a Volvo.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:20 PM   #26
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About 3 years ago I spent some time on an E4 at the dock, but have never been out in the ocean on one. They are definitely nice, well built boats, With a well thought out interior. IMO for the price point there were better options out there. I also remember the engine room space being tight, which didnít make a lot of sense for a long range cruiser. And, it had a Volvo.
When you're cramming 3 staterooms and a salon into a 49' boat with 14' beam but much narrower at most of it's length, doesn't leave you much room for engines.
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:00 AM   #27
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The 65' has 2000 nm range conservatively at 8 knots and can slow down and increase that. The 100% calculated range at 8 knots is just over 2500 nm. 7.5 knots at 5 gph.
I'd cross in this boat if I wasn't paying the bills.
I've looked at those boats in Europe a number of times. They are great coastal cruisers.
But that are also different lifestyle boats than most of us on TF.

The owners of these boats don't work on them and wouldn't "waste" two weeks crossing an ocean.
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:06 AM   #28
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This add points our that boats of 40 ft or so have been making crossings for many decades/

The first captain crossing the Atlantic Ocean under power

Arielle was built by Chantiers Navals Jouet & Cie. in France, from designs by Marin Marie. The hull was round bottom. Length overall 40 feet, beam 10 feet and tonnage 13. She had a two-ton keel. The sheer was continuous but forward, the nearly plumb stem gained an extra-foot of freeboard by a bulwark. Aft, the deck was sunk about 18 inches to form a small cockpit with big scuppers. In the cockpit there was a hatch for access to the stowage compartment below and the steering quadrant. In our days we would call this space a lazarette. A V-shaped raked coaming was set on deck forward to break any solid water that may find its way over the bow. Amidships there was an enclosed deckhouse, our modern pilot house. Further aft, there was a trunk cabin with the living quarters, very close to the layout of our pretty Selene Archer!
On a single engine for 22 days

Arielle was brought over from France aboard the liner Champlain several weeks before her departure from New York. Using an ingenious electric autopilot combined with a wind-vane system designed by himself and French engineer Casel, Marin Marie had sailed his yacht back from New York to Le Havre practically without touching the helm! The engine of Arielle was a bullet-proof French-made 4-cylinder Baudoin which worked day and night during twenty days. The Arielle, could bunker 5 tons of fuel and used only two third of it during the passage across the Atlantic Ocean via Nova Scotia. The Arielle cruise speed was 10 knots.

Marin-Marie came from a family interested in things nautical. He also obtained a doctorate in law, and took classes at the …cole des Beaux-Arts in Paris. He did his share of voyaging while making a career as a renown painter and serving as an advisor for what was known as the French Line. A consultant for the Saint Nazaire Shipyard, he designed the stacks of the famous Normandie liner, adding a third one for aesthetic reasons only, which was eventually used as a kennel for the passenger’s dogs. In 1934, Marin Marie was appointed Peintre Official de la Marine, a rare distinction created in 1830.

In 1946, one decade later, after the French captain’s accomplishment, Robert Beebe wrote in Rudder, a leading boating magazine of the time, about the concept of passagemaking under power. It was then that, following Marin Marie’s foot steps, he coined the word “passagemaker” as the term for ocean-crossing vessels. Beebe’s Passagemaker was built in Singapore and launched in 1963.
A few years ago only, M.Y. Furthur, a Selene 47 skippered by Cap. Brian Calvert was the first Selene yacht which has crossed the Pacific Ocean!
Marin Marie, Robert Beebe, both of them still inspire us at Selene Yachts, and they inspire our clients a
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:29 AM   #29
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The owners of these boats don't work on them and wouldn't "waste" two weeks crossing an ocean.


I agree! I had a conversation with Tony Fleming a few years back at a boat show, and while I was talking the benefits of a Nordhavn single engine making a crossing, he stated he ships his boat to the cruising locations he films. Makes sense for someone with his resources. He constructs a fine cruiser.
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Old 02-23-2019, 12:24 PM   #30
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I agree! I had a conversation with Tony Fleming a few years back at a boat show, and while I was talking the benefits of a Nordhavn single engine making a crossing, he stated he ships his boat to the cruising locations he films. Makes sense for someone with his resources. He constructs a fine cruiser.
Many larger boat owners and also send their boats across with just their crew and then fly across themselves. Now, we don't consider the two weeks a waste and fully intend to do it in a few years.
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Old 02-23-2019, 12:37 PM   #31
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"Many larger boat owners and also send their boats across with just their crew and then fly across themselves."

Not just big buck folks , when LUCY and our 90/90 go I have a box boat ,
a 39 ft cruiser that would fit in a std shipping container on my board,
I would love to get built in aluminum in some boat savvy low cost labor country.

Poland perhaps?
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Old 02-23-2019, 03:10 PM   #32
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No flying bridge!

I want one!
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Old 02-23-2019, 03:45 PM   #33
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"Many larger boat owners and also send their boats across with just their crew and then fly across themselves."

Not just big buck folks , when LUCY and our 90/90 go I have a box boat ,
a 39 ft cruiser that would fit in a std shipping container on my board,
I would love to get built in aluminum in some boat savvy low cost labor country.

Poland perhaps?
Some excellent builders in Turkey.
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:41 PM   #34
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I'd cross in this boat if I wasn't paying the bills.
I've looked at those boats in Europe a number of times. They are great coastal cruisers.
But that are also different lifestyle boats than most of us on TF.

The owners of these boats don't work on them and wouldn't "waste" two weeks crossing an ocean.
Richard , Iím assuming your reference to ďpaying the bills ď was about the fuel cost consumption? How do you personally define a boat for coastal use as compared to ocean capable...Thanks...
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:45 PM   #35
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Some excellent builders in Turkey.
One of the TF members are having an amazing build done in Turkey, all aluminum LRC 58 I think...They have a blog called Mobius World, the build quality looks excellent. Not sure of the cost , but Iím thinking north of One Million....
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:33 AM   #36
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"Some excellent builders in Turkey."

Agree!

We loved Turkey on out last visit , BUT the current government scares the crap put of me.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:30 PM   #37
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In August 1977, Allen Cargile completed his New York to Paris voyage in a cruiser of his own design and manufacture, the Cargile Cutter. The Cutter was sold with single or twin Chrysler outdrives, but for this boat, the power was a single Volvo-Penta outdrive. Most of the interior furniture was removed to make room for extra fuel tanks. There was a good article on Cargile's voyage, which indeed was made for marketing purposes, in the May 1978 issue of The United States Power Squadrons' Ensign magazine. see https://cargilecutters.wordpress.com
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:55 PM   #38
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I think the people aboard are much less likely to be offshore compatible compared to any offshore designed boat. I was aboard an elling when they first appeared in Ft Lauderdale and their build quality wasn't great. I agree with B&B since you seldom get a chance to batten down all the hatches, seat belt everyone in, and then proceed with a knockdown. Most knockdowns come as a surprise.
Their controlled example, rolled by a crane, with divers standing by was done by a fully prepped boat and owner inside. Nothing was loose that might have flown across the cabin and broken a window. That's not how most people cruise.
Knockdowns are not slow rolls, from what I understand, they happen so quickly that you're figuring out what happened as the boat tries to right itself. I for one, never want to experience that part of boating. I don't think it fits the pleasure boating category I desire.

Also, I have concerns about how a fuel bladder would affect the stability of an Elling, needed to give it ocean-crossing range. From what I know, you use up enough fuel in the tanks to empty a bladder back into the fixed tanks so you don't have a floppy fuel bladder tied on deck. All the deck sidewalls have to be built strong enough to contain the pressure from the bladder when full and underway. I don't think it would be safe for a retrofit solution, but if they planned it, built it for the use of bladders, and tested the stability, it should be OK.

Tony Fleming sold Venture II and uses Venture for his film work.
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Old 03-01-2019, 05:16 PM   #39
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You have pretty described Tony's Fleming 65 "Venture" which has crossed many oceans.
Having cruised aboard Venture I and II, I can attest to their seaworthiness (I've made offshore passages aboard every current model Fleming, 55, 58, 65 and 75). On a passage from Scotland to Iceland, via the Faroes, we encountered truly nasty conditions, square waves that put the vessel through her paces. I was literally airborne above the helm chair if not holding on while on watch, and above my berth when off watch. Every light on the boat is LED with the exception of the berth reading lights, and at the end of that passage the filament in every one of them was broken. We lost a few wine glasses and a bottle of really good Scottish beer broke in the reefer, causing quite a mess. Nothing else failed or broke. Not the worst offshore passage I've made, but close. Here's the review https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...Fleming-65.pdf

Having said that, neither Venture has "crossed an ocean" although other Flemings have. Venture I has covered many sea miles.

I wrote a review of the Elling E3 several years ago, and have been to the factory on a few occasions. An article about the latter can be found here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...ling158-02.pdf

The Elling roll over is staged, it has no rails or other deck gear, however, I know of no other production builder that has demonstrated righting ability (and watertight integrity) of a vessel of this displacement, in this manner. The guy sitting in the helm chair during the roll over, btw, is the owner of the company, Anton van den Bos. Here's the video
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Old 03-01-2019, 05:48 PM   #40
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How do you break the filament of an LED light? Did you mean to say the reading lights that were not LED were all broken?
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