Traffic on reciprocal course

[psneeld]

For new boaters....if you are going to study the Navrules.....


At some point talk to captains that you trust and get the full operational use of the rules....even then you will get a variety of answers.


No one rule usually applies in every situation and even then there is the intent "to prevent a collision" thus rule 2 which is the catch-all rule that basically say use your brain in addition to the rules.

 

[ProMaritime]

If the GB was southbound and you were northbound, the GB made the right move by altering course to starboard. You should have done the same. If a turn to starboard would have produced inadequate sea room by your estimation, you should have held your course. The near-miss (or as we say in aviation the "near hit") was caused by you not turning to starboard as the rules provide, or at least by not holding your last course.

 

[dhays]

Just for some clarification. Here is a very rough and simple diagram of what the situation was that brought up this thread. As you can see, two boats approaching each other on reciprocal courses. We would not have hit each other if we both maintained our course, I was the northbound boat and I was slightly to the West of the southbound boat. I felt the separation between us was too close for comfort. Why go that close to another boat when where is plenty of sea room and do draft constraints? Particular when boat are at their cruising speed and the southbound boat is putting out a significant (not giant) wake? I elected to turn to port to increase the separation instead of turning to starboard, crossing their bow. We were further apart initially than the diagram would indicate, again a bit under a 1/2 nm. The southbound boat then turned to starboard, negating the effect of my turn.

So here is a diagram and a chart of the area. Colvos Passage is the channel that runs north-south to the east. Again, it is 1 to 1 1/2 nm wide.
View attachment 92705

 

[caltexflanc]

I wouldn't be going north because the northern half is shallow and would be aground. (The bay's channel markers are all two-digits.)

How long would the other boat take to respond, if at all?

Northbound is a general not literal term in transiting channels. And no, the markers in San Pablo bay are not all double digits. As you come through San Pablo Straights past the Brothers, R2 comes first, R4, then R8.

I would really recommend you take some seamanship classes, it would help you a lot.

I learned all this while cruising the California Delta. You get about a 50% success rate in reaching the boat you want. Sailboats,less than that because a lot don't have a VHF at the helm. Of course if you wait 'til the very last minute, your success rate goes down.
When I moved my cruising grounds to the eastern seaboard, I found a lot that I learned in the Delta came in very handy, especially on the ICW

 

[markpierce]

Cal, I was assuming one had entered San Pablo Bay from the east via Carquinez Strait.

The only times I've heard radio communication between boats involving meets has been between ships and other commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. I always stay well clear of commercial vessels.

Most of San Pablo Bay is not navigable because of shallow water. Turning right while being near the starboard edge of navigable waters can find one grounded.

Your seamanship-class recommendation is not welcomed.

I enjoy transiting the whirlpools often occurring between East Brother and Pt. San Pablo.

 

[Wayfarer]

...We would not have hit each other if we both maintained our course, I was the northbound boat and I was slightly to the West of the southbound boat. I felt the separation between us was too close for comfort. Why go that close to another boat when where is plenty of sea room and do draft constraints? Particular when boat are at their cruising speed and the southbound boat is putting out a significant (not giant) wake? I elected to turn to port to increase the separation instead of turning to starboard, crossing their bow. We were further apart initially than the diagram would indicate, again a bit under a 1/2 nm. The southbound boat then turned to starboard, negating the effect of my turn.

I can't see the attached... um... attachment, but it sounds like technically, you weren't beholden to the 'thou shalt always turn to starboard' rule in that situation, as that only applies when 'risk of collision exists.' You were justified in turning to port, as turning to starboard would have been more likely to introduce risk of collision.

There was no good reason for the other dude to turn toward you, and it's less than ideal seamanship. The thought process probably never even entered his mind. He was probably thinking 'Oooh Martha! MARTHA COMEHERE! Look at that! I think that's a NP 43, I want a closer look at that fine vessel!' and just rubbernecked his way over. Such is the drawback of owning such a stately craft. You're just going to have to get an uglier boat.

 

[psneeld]

I agree, the rules cover manuevering long before a risk of collision exists.... there is really no rule prohibiting turning to port unless pretty close aboard.. 1/2 mile is dictated for agreement, but like I said even law enforcement ignores the 1/2 mile rule routinely as it's rediculous for small vessels that can stop and turn quickly.

 

[syjos]

I can't see the attached... um... attachment, but it sounds like technically, you weren't beholden to the 'thou shalt always turn to starboard' rule in that situation, as that only applies when 'risk of collision exists.' You were justified in turning to port, as turning to starboard would have been more likely to introduce risk of collision.

There was no good reason for the other dude to turn toward you, and it's less than ideal seamanship. The thought process probably never even entered his mind. He was probably thinking 'Oooh Martha! MARTHA COMEHERE! Look at that! I think that's a NP 43, I want a closer look at that fine vessel!' and just rubbernecked his way over. Such is the drawback of owning such a stately craft. You're just going to have to get an uglier boat.

Or the though process from the other boater was "Oh right, the other boat chickened out and turned away so I have more room to get closer to my route and maybe he will turn further - ha ha"

Or "we must have the right away? the other boater turned away"

 

[Nomad Willy]

Most seem to think they are driving cars.
Very few boats are very willing to pass stbd to stbd. They try to force me to go port to port like they pass head on traffic in their cars.

But there’s so many variables in situations that even rules of thumb don’t fly.

I make a 15 degree course change in the direction I’d like to go and responses are many including no response at all.
I like to run close to shore and dislike getting between the shore and another boat having no place to go if a boat crowds me that way.
And there’s too many other variables to mention. Size of boat is a big one.

Most of the time I try to see and avoid. And do what brings that about.

 

[SailorGreg]

Most seem to think they are driving cars.
Very few boats are very willing to pass stbd to stbd. They try to force me to go port to port like they pass head on traffic in their cars.

But there’s so many variables in situations that even rules of thumb don’t fly.

I make a 15 degree course change in the direction I’d like to go and responses are many including no response at all.
I like to run close to shore and dislike getting between the shore and another boat having no place to go if a boat crowds me that way.
And there’s too many other variables to mention. Size of boat is a big one.

Most of the time I try to see and avoid. And do what brings that about.

David, I commend your efforts to get this right, experimenting with turns and horn and such. I think the decision as to when to turn is sort of an acquired skill. Not too late to scare anyone, but not too soon to look like you are headed elsewhere.
By now you have figured out that there are some “ by the book” folks and some “rule of thumb” folks. Your choice... sort of.
In your comment you say” too close for comfort” . I would interpret that as “ risk of collision. So Rule 14 applies.
Problem is, we have a rule that is very specific. And it’s purpose is to avoid collisions, so if there is a collision, then what side of the rule do you want to be on? Try telling the judge you interpreted Rule 14 as a “ rule of thumb” and turned left because it was Tuesday and you always turn left on Tuesdays. Or any other reason you thought turning left, contrary to the rule was a better idea.
Meanwhile, for 999 out of 1000 meeting engagements, nobody gets hurt and all you want to do is enjoy the day. You turn to starboard because that’s what the rule says, and the other guy turns to port because he thinks it is a rule of thumb. And then you have to untangle everything.
All I can say is that I will continue to interpret the rules as written, and then prepare for those who don’t.

Have fun

 

[psneeld]

If rules were so black and white ...


Why do most maritime courts find fault on both vessels?


Lots of reasons.... including both not following rules and or following them in a vacuum.

 

[BandB]

If rules were so black and white ...


Why do most maritime courts find fault on both vessels?


Lots of reasons.... including both not following rules and or following them in a vacuum.

Wifey B: Takes two to tango.

 

[caltexflanc]

Cal, I was assuming one had entered San Pablo Bay from the east via Carquinez Strait.

The only times I've heard radio communication between boats involving meets has been between ships and other commercial vessels, not recreational vessels. I always stay well clear of commercial vessels.

Most of San Pablo Bay is not navigable because of shallow water. Turning right while being near the starboard edge of navigable waters can find one grounded.

Your seamanship-class recommendation is not welcomed.

I enjoy transiting the whirlpools often occurring between East Brother and Pt. San Pablo.

Mark, here is what you said in Post #10:

Going eastward in southern San Pablo Bay, found myself heading directly toward a recreational trawler

I plied those waters since I was a boy. Been in all the nooks and crannies off San Pablo Bay. I know where the shallow water is all too well.

Carquinez Straits is at the northeastern end of SP Bay. So I ask where exactly were you when this incident occurred?

The seamanship class suggestion was made in good faith, based on this and other posts. I know they helped me tremendously even after years of boating, "getting away with" all sorts of ill-advised behaviors and perceptions. I apologize if you took it as a slight. I believe these forums are for boaters helping boaters.