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Old 02-25-2011, 02:08 PM   #21
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

I run North up on plotter and course up on the Da Da.
More instinctively than anything else.

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Old 02-25-2011, 02:13 PM   #22
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Tidahapah wrote:

"the Da Da."
Is that Australian for radar?

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Old 02-26-2011, 09:01 AM   #23
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Track Up or North Up?

Wow, very interesting. I am particularly encouraged to see so many use course up at least some of the time. After many years working in the field with topography maps I felt I was somehow perspectively challenged because I didn't feel comfortable cruising with north up on the boat gps. What a relief, I can cancel my appointment with the dementia doctor and just go boating without guilt.

I second the recomendation to stay away from the factory installed gps in cars. Volvo offered one for several thousand dollars more as an option, thankfully we passed on that. I bought a Garmin Nuvi for less that $150 and it even got me to the Seattle Boat Show!

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Saturday 26th of February 2011 10:02:57 AM
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:22 AM   #24
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Track Up or North Up?

Course up in the airplane....Course up on the boat!

FWIW...there is no active North up mode on Boeings. *Even weirder is the main map display is truly course up and not heading up. *In a strong crosswind your heading and course can be 30 degrees apart(or more)....so what is at the top of the map is not necessarily where the nose is pointed. *Takes awhile to get used to.


-- Edited by Baker on Saturday 26th of February 2011 11:26:47 AM
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:23 AM   #25
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Course up.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:31 AM   #26
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Course up for me.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #27
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Coures up plotter & course up on radar. I can flip a chart around to agree with my brain much easier than flipping the other way round. My wife does not agree but...

In low visibility I have the scale on the plotter and radar the same scale. It helps tell buoys from boats.
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:12 PM   #28
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

I think course up is nuts. On any map or chart north is UP. They say in kayaking never to switch back and forth from a feathered paddle to a non-feathered paddle. When you need to brace you may get a brace and you may not. I'll bet mariners on ships at sea don't go forth w their charts up side down. What do you think about this landlubber stuff Jack?I took a girl and two women to Glacier Bay in the 70s when I was a young man and didn't know better. We went up into the bay towards Riggs Glacier going north and all was fine.
When we came back all of my crew insisted on turning the chart up side down. I told them no it's not done that way but they insisted and kept turning the chart around. "Wer'e not going backwards Eric". I gave up arguing w 2 women (strong willed) and one girl (definitely w the women) and tried to navigate w the inverted chart. I finally got mixed up and basically lost. My (then) girlfriend (very smart) seemed sure she knew where we were and I knew I didn't so I said "which way do we go". By her navigation we made it back to Bartlett Cove and all the girls got on a plane and flew home and I went back to Juneau by myself.
I'm warn'in ya guys * * .... keep the charts right side up.
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:45 PM   #29
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Baker wrote:FWIW...there is no active North up mode on Boeings.
Actually there is.* I believe you fly a 67/57 so your North-up mode is the little magnetic compass you never use that we stuck in there because the FAA said we had to.* The 787 does not have a magnetic compass.

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Old 02-26-2011, 12:52 PM   #30
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Budds Outlet wrote:It seems to me that unlike a land map, having the track up on the GPS makes it easier for me to interpret what I am seeing through the windshield.
I agree!

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Old 02-26-2011, 12:58 PM   #31
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:I think course up is nuts...... I'm warn'in ya guys * * .... keep the chartsright side up.
Total bunk!* This thread is about chart plotters and GPS! Hold your paper charts
any way you want but chart plotters are more easily understood when in the course
up mode.

You're straying too far from your "anchor trilogy" Eric!

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Old 02-26-2011, 01:00 PM   #32
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Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
I think course up is nuts. On any map or chart north is UP.
I dont' go quite that far.* I think course-up makes a lot of sense in a lot of situations, one of which is if the boater (or pilot) finds it easier to visualize where the boat is and thus what direction to turn to alter course.* The GPS's many of us use in our cars, at least the stand-alone units like Garmins, display course-up or heading-up if you will, and that makes all sorts of sense for a lot of reasons.* For the same reason that the map displays in aircraft like those that John flies are oriented course up.

But interestingly enough, where some people here have said that they get a bit confused when their boat is heading in a southerly direction with a north up display because they're not immediately sure which way to turn the boat for a course correction, we experience the same "confusion" if we turn the chart around to a "head up" position of change the plotters to track up or course up orientation.* We are both so used to working with charts in the north-up orientation that anything other than that looks weird although I know we'd get used to it fairly quickly.* We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.

So I think it all boils down to what seems most intuitive to the individual.* With the exception I noted in my first post, we use north-up on the boat's plotters and we leave our paper charts in that orientation all the time because we like it, not because it's better.



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-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:04:40 PM
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:18 PM   #33
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Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Marin wrote:We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.
Why would the using the same orientation on a boat be any different?

If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?
*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:21:42 PM
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:32 PM   #34
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

I think I'm now realizing that there is a difference in the way we look at paper charts and what we see on the screen of the chart plotter. If I hold a chart in the north up orientation and then look across the chart in the direction I am heading I see the same thing I would see if I were looking at a course up chart plotter.

I would never hold a chart with any other orientation then north up, it wouldn't make any sence. Like Nomadwilly, I'd get disoriented and possibly lost.
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:47 PM   #35
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:


If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?
I don't see it that way at all.* North up puts me spatially correct, within MY visualization.* I'm a geologist and have been looking at (and creating) maps with North up for the last 40 years.* When cruising South from San Diego to Cabo I expect to see the land mass to the East!* Like Marin, it becomes personal and how we were taught and practiced, I suppose.

*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of February 2011 02:21:42 PM


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Old 02-26-2011, 02:07 PM   #36
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

*
Marin wrote:We experience no such weirdness on the GPS in the car or on the map displays when I get to fly one of our simulators around at work.
Why would the using the same orientation on a boat be any different?

If your going south from San Diego to Cabo, don't you think it's a little weird to see the land mass on the right of your plotter screen?
"Weirdness" as I used it is relative to how we feel, not that I think it's weird whoever does it this way.

There's nothing weird in my opinion about the notion of running with the plotters in course or heading up.* We just prefer a north up orientation.* As I said, neither my wife nor I have any problems visualizing where our boat is relative to what's around us even if we are running the opposite direction.* For whatever reason, we don't need the orientation of what we see outside the window to match the orientation of the chart or the plotter display.* We "match" the orientation in our minds, I guess.* Whatever, neither one of has a problem matching the navaids, shoreline configurations, etc we see out the windows to the charts regardless of how the charts are oriented to the view out the window.* But if someone held a gun to our heads and said from now on you can only run your plotters in course-up, fine, no problem.

When we first started flying the Beaver up the Inside Passage into BC and SE Alaska I cut up a bunch of sectional charts into 11" x 14" rectangles with our course more or less up the middle and glued them to 11" x 14" pieces of heavy cardboard.* This was because we didn't want to be wrestling with folding and refolding a set of large sectionals as we progressed up the coast.* So I put the first "board" in my lap and when we reach the top of it I put it away and get the second board and keep going.* It takes eight of our "boards" to go from Seattle to Petersburg.

Going up the coast the charts on the boards are oriented more or less to what we see out the windscreen.* But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.* So working with north-up is just something we've gotten used to over many, many years.

So yes, if we were to run a boat down the west coast of Baja we'd have the plotters set to north up with the land on the right and the Pacific on the left.* And we would keep the paper chart at the helm oriented the same way.* And I don't think we would even consciously notice that the orientation was different to what we saw out the window unless someone asked us why we were doing it that way

So as I said, it's all just personal preference.* There is no right or wrong way to do it.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #37
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Marin wrote:But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.
This doesn't happen on a plotter. (at least on mine it doesn't)

Again, this thread started with a question relative to GPS (plotters)
Try and imagine flying a back course ILS with your GPS plotter reading "north up."


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Old 02-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #38
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Track Up or North Up?

Eric,
A bit like boats and lawn, right side up.Always.
Benn
PS Da Da Australian for radar. in some circles.

-- Edited by Tidahapah on Saturday 26th of February 2011 04:01:22 PM
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:15 PM   #39
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
Giggitoni wrote:I'm a geologist and have been looking at (and creating) maps with North up for the last 40 years. I have no argument with that! When cruising South from San Diego to Cabo I expect to see the land mass to the East! So do I and if my plotter is set to course up...it will be to the EAST! (In this case the left side of my screen agrees with what my eyes are telling me and is EAST!)
__________________________________________________ ____________

All a plotter is, is a graphic depiction of what a camera (or a human) will see. I understand that most maps (not all) are created with a "north up" orientation but technology has now made it possible for us to orient our navaids (and read them..right side up) to the direction of travel. Isn't it logical to take advantage of this? I was taught to read maps with a north up orientation but I'm sure as hell not going to tell my wonderful plotter to read "north up" when I'm headed due south!

Jump on board with "course up" orientation....the train is leaving the station. (Do what you will with your paper maps.)

Please note that "course up" and "heading up" are not the same thing.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:39 PM   #40
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RE: Track Up or North Up?

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

*
Marin wrote:But when we fly home at the end of the trip, we don't turn the boards around.* We hold them the same way.* Partly because, unlike a plotter, when you turn a chart upside down all the text and numbers are upside down, too.
This doesn't happen on a plotter. (at least on mine it doesn't)

Again, this thread started with a question relative to GPS (plotters)
Try and imagine flying a back course ILS with your GPS plotter reading "north up."
Walt, read what I wrote again.* I said that unlike a plotter, when we turn our chart boards upside down the text and numbers are upside down, too.* Our three plotter displays maintain a right-side up orientation of the text regardless of whether the display is north up or course up.

Granted the discussion started with GPS plotters but we all do what we do for specific reasons.* In our case, and in the cases of some of the other posters, we run our plotters the way we do because we relate them to the way we use our charts.** I suppose one could answer the original question with a simple "north up" or "course up" and leave it at that but that doesn't tell the original poster why we do what we do, which was probably the reason behind the question in the first place.* So it's kind of hard to ignore paper charts in the answer if they are the reason why a boater sets up his plotters the way he does.

When flying on instruments of course it makes more sense to use a course up or heading up display.* The consequences of making an interpretive error are severe and can be instantaneous.* I've never flown a plane, be it a simple Top Cub, Cessna 206, or Caravan, to any of the Boeing simulators, where a north-up orientation on an HSI or moving map display was even an option.* (The Beaver I fly has no navigation system whatsoever other than the magnetic compass so paper charts are all there is.)

As I have said before, both my wife and I are perfectly at home with either mode on a chart display.* But we happen to prefer running the boat with the plotters in north-up.* In our vehicles we use course or heading up as I do in the planes or simulators I fly that have GPS chart or HSI displays.*

On the boat we will sometimes shift one of the plotter displays to course up when we are in low visibility and we want to orient the chart display as closely as possible to the radar display in a split-screen mode.
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