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Old 07-20-2016, 11:39 AM   #21
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Every dinghy I have towed but 1, I have towed up close. This includes towing a canoe. For that, FF has already posted the solution. In my home waters, canoes are uncommon, but those who tow them usually have them close, and often with the bow out of the water (best). If you leave the bow in the water, a short painter is best.
When I attach a painter, I never exceed the length that is just a shade too short to foul the prop, as I believe in Murphy. Even floating lines are succeptible to the suction a prop in reverse generates, so if you make the painter long enough to foul, it will do so, and always at the worst possible time.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:13 PM   #22
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Keith,
Canoe w bow out of the water looses most of it's meager stability.
Re painter length I've always used about 50'. Usually tied to put the dink on the face of a following stern wave hoping it will reduce drag. My own stern wave that is. When slowing or making a landing I've usually put the dink on the hip, or close in at times.

Hawg,
You're really a handy guy to have around. Thanks for the pics. #1 is the way I mostly have seen it.
Re the OP's boat w the FB ... I know the boat but it went over the top anyway. I just forgot it was an ice cream boat.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:07 PM   #23
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. Lots of very helpful information here. To answer a few questions...

1. I have owned inflatable kayaks and canoes. The performance is inferior to a hard one. We might resort to it if towing our hard canoe ends up not faring well.

2. The canoe can't easily be loaded onto and retrieved from the flybridge. We have a bimni on the aft deck, which would need to be retracted when we load and unload. And when the kayak is on it, moving back and forth would be a chore. While it is technically possible, it is definitely not an experience enhancing option.

3. I have concerns about mounting it on the side -- as I have a narrow beam and the boat lists very easily.

I see some virtue behind towing the canoe with the bow out of the water. How far out of the water are we talking? The canoe has a very narrow stern, so it being too high out of the water can cause a different set of problems.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:03 PM   #24
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. Lots of very helpful information here. To answer a few questions...

1. I have owned inflatable kayaks and canoes. The performance is inferior to a hard one. We might resort to it if towing our hard canoe ends up not faring well.
.
It will end up not faring well. You are young and have little experience with Murphy's law. I am old and have enough experience for 10. Let me explain:

You will tow the canoe many times without incident. It will become routine. Then, one day, there will be some teenagers wakeboarding. They're going to cross close behind you to jump your wake. You're worried they don't see the tow and speed up, slow down, turn, whatever, and for the first time, the canoe flips. The tow rope parts under the strain. The canoe, true to advertising, doesn't sink, but it's awash. You're worried the teenagers don't see it, and you're waving frantically. They're looking at you, trying to figure out if they know you, and they run over the canoe, doing great damage to the bottom of their boat and prop. You turn back to help and run over what's left of the tow rope, fouling your prop, stalling the engine, and bending the shaft. Now you're both dead in the water and you're both leaking.

Don't ask how I know about this stuff, but it is a certainty, unless you can think of a worse scenario, and then that will happen.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:18 PM   #25
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Don't ask how I know about this stuff, but it is a certainty, unless you can think of a worse scenario, and then that will happen.
Wise words.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:28 PM   #26
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It will end up not faring well. You are young and have little experience with Murphy's law. I am old and have enough experience for 10. Let me explain:
While I feel for your expensive lesson, I like the tale.

I just got done reading 2 Googled forums on this subject and there were many stories to match yours and many more who simply said don't do it.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:33 PM   #27
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Drill 2 holes in the gunnel of the canoe a few feet back from the bow.

Bolt a 2x4 across with a few feet sticking out both sides.

Drill holes in the ends of the 2x4

Lines from the holes to stern cleats.

Figure out how to pad bow of canoe.

Tow maybe 5 to 10 to 15 feet behind boat, close enough the tow lines almost lift the bow clear or do lift clear of the water. At slow speeds the MO entum should be a threat to damaging your boat if you stop and the tow lines short enough to not foul your prop(s). They are also tight enough to not let the canoe flip.

Just an idea...work out a few mods as necessary.

Anything is possible when a little ingenuity and trial/error is applied.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:38 PM   #28
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While I feel for your expensive lesson, I like the tale.
No, no, I made the story up. I never had this particular bad idea, but that's just because it's impossible for one person to have all the bad ideas.

I do hope I have gained some capacity to recognize bad ideas in others. When somebody suggests something, and a lot of people think it's a bad idea, and I'm thinking, "Hmmm, that sounds like something I might do," I know I have a duty to shout a warning.
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Old 07-20-2016, 05:43 PM   #29
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A small Bayliner going 6 knots is not going to attract wake riders.
You can paddle the canoe faster than 6 knots.

By "bow out of the water" I mean just up on the swim platform, well secured on on each of its sides to maintain stability. Practice, experiment. None of us have the boats in question, ultimately we are all speculating.
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Old 07-20-2016, 05:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Drill 2 holes in the gunnel of the canoe a few feet back from the bow.

Bolt a 2x4 across with a few feet sticking out both sides.

Drill holes in the ends of the 2x4

Lines from the holes to stern cleats.

Figure out how to pad bow of canoe.

Tow maybe 5 to 10 to 15 feet behind boat, close enough the tow lines almost lift the bow clear or do lift clear of the water. At slow speeds the MO entum should be a threat to damaging your boat if you stop and the tow lines short enough to not foul your prop(s). They are also tight enough to not let the canoe flip.

Just an idea...work out a few mods as necessary.

Anything is possible when a little ingenuity and trial/error is applied.

I like it except for drilling holes in the gunnel. The gunnel is a highly stressed part of a canoe. The ends not as much as amidships though. Do you think the 2x4 and bridal would help canoe stability dynamically under tow?
I really would like my canoe at anchor.

caltex,
I've been paddling canoes since the early 50's and can't imagine paddling a standard canoe 6 knots. Six knots is my cruising speed w the Willard.
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Old 07-21-2016, 02:12 PM   #31
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Towing a Canoe at 6 Knots

Turn into a trimaran with outrigger to both sides. Maybe three foot wide on both side of the canoe you could even use a long fenders for the floats. Then make a snap cover made to go over the canoe to keep out spray. I would even but a small bilge pump in it. When you build the outriggers make them break down with out to much trouble. I think this would tow well enough on short line for anything you are will to try in a 27 ft boat. It's not worth a back injury trying haul that canoe on board a boat that small. The canoe could also double for some storage of light items if it has a cover. I would buy a quicker release for the tow line in case things go bad you will not be able to maneuver the boat if the canoe is submerged. Anyone can pull quick release or you can run a line back to your steering location.
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Old 07-21-2016, 07:55 PM   #32
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funangler,
I thought of a tri but spent much more time thinking about an out rigger. Ama only on one side. The huge advantage is that then one can tie to a float and disembark gracefully. And reach out to put stuff on the float before stepping off.

Another problem w towing most any open boat is shipping water bit by bit from slop and spray. When it's choppy a bilge bump would be almost a necessity.

With a battery, an attached OB and fuel a canoe would be a great dinghy. I have a really big freight canoe that would be perfect but this one I'd really hate to loose. It's 41" wide, 17" deep and made of Kevlar. Has a small square stern and cruises at 10 knots w 6 to 8hp.
But I have a regular FG canoe that I could experiment with.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:20 PM   #33
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With a battery, an attached OB and fuel a canoe would be a great dinghy. I have a really big freight canoe that would be perfect but this one I'd really hate to loose. It's 41" wide, 17" deep and made of Kevlar. Has a small square stern and cruises at 10 knots w 6 to 8hp.
But I have a regular FG canoe that I could experiment with.
In theory, my canoe would make a great dinghy. It has a square stern and I occasionally mount a 30 lb thrust trolling motor on it and manage to get better speeds and battery life than on my Avon inflatable. The problem lies in the fact that it doesn't tow as well as my inflatable does.

We are set to take a short cruise next weekend; and I'm going to lift the bow out of the water and see what happens.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:33 PM   #34
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Another way of doing it, or possibly helping one who can't beat the tidal current:

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Old 07-21-2016, 09:26 PM   #35
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To the OP,
Thanks for bringing back some great memories. When I think about how many miles I have towed canoes and how many endless days I have sat in canoes, I am reminded why I have a little grey hair and a sore back.
I grew up near an international National Park Wilderness that straddled the US/Canada border between MN and Ontario. It was the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness on the US side and Quetico Provincial Park on the Canadian side. The park was regulated in zones, motorized equipment was allowed near the exterior, limited horsepower in the intermediate zone and no motors in the interior of these parks that were over two million acres on the US side and more in Canada.
I guided fishing trips working for my parents resort for over a decade when I was younger. We would tow mostly a 19' Grumman square stern freighter canoe to where we had to drop horsepower, then run a 9.9 on the canoe to the interior where we had to paddle the beasts. Some times we did 17'double enders which were even more squirrely in tow.
I am with FF on this. Canoes generally have a little shallow keel full length. If this keel is in the water toward the front of the canoe, the canoe will want to start a sway that gets amplified over time until all hell breaks loose and you lose control of it. We would get enough speed to put some air under the bow and only the back half of the canoe had keel in the water and then they would tow ok with little to moderate cross wind. If cross wind was significant then it was a battle all the way and we would sometimes tack if it was bad enough. Six knots may be much more forgiving but we had fish to catch so there wasn't going to be any six knots happening.
Still, thinking about your question, I would put the bow in a U bracket on the swim step sticking far enough thru the bracket to get to where the bottom if flatter and the sides of the U bracket pinned the side to further reduce roll potential and tow this thing like a tail on the big boat.
I would only attach the canoe to each side of the U bracket at breakaway strength so that if you swamp the canoe from the back you only have a swamped canoe adrift to deal with rather than tearing the big boat limb from limb like something as heavy and with as much drag as a swamped canoe will have. If she swamps I want her to let go of the big boat and it could happen.
One further hint: if you get swamped you will only get the canoe rescued from totally upside down. roll her completely over and then break suction from one pointy end only, lift that end very high and then flip her over quickly and you will only have a little water left in it. There is usually a little floatation in both pointy ends.

Them were the days........
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:37 AM   #36
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I originally thought the outrigger idea was a bit overkill...but the more I thought about it, it began to make sense. I can pick these up for less than $200...and it seems like a permanent solution.



Yak Gear Kayak Outriggers Standard Orange
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Old 07-22-2016, 09:45 AM   #37
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Klee wyck,
Your great post seems laced w PITA experiences. They are the real learners of course.
My 15' Aluma Craft has the keel but I would not order one new. My other canoes have no keel and I've never felt the need for one. I bent the keel slightly (3/4") putting some rocker in and think it paddles perfectly now.

I can see the bow hunting happening at higher speeds and see now where a bit bow high would definitely help directional stability. Your comments on swamping seem spot on. And I had'nt given cross winds much thought. Again great post. We love our canoes .. but canoes are canoes. Our big yellow Clipper handles rough water well but can be wet.

Ed,
I think those outriggers are for fishermen wanting to stand up to fish w/o the tippy feel threat of falling in. If you "tipped" and got those orange things in the water the high drag may rip them off causing damage to the gunnel. Would be better if they were adjustable (the photo says they probably are) and could be raised up so they would be well off the water. Those things dipping in the water at even 6 knots would not be good. Stability yes but too high a price .. IMO. With amas there are a whole bunch of new variables and PITA situations. I don't know of any store bought amas that are worth buying IMO.
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Old 07-22-2016, 11:37 AM   #38
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You've got nothing to lose by experimenting. That thing ought to plane, despite its lousy shape; it's light and well beyond its hull speed. I think FF's idea of towing from low is right; add a towing eye down by the waterline. His idea of towing with the bow up tight to the mothership is worth a try; it would get its pointy end out of the water. Folks tow inflatables that way. But the varying turbulence caused by other's wakes and waves might not be kind to a narrow craft trying to stay upright on its narrow stern.

I've had poor experience towing a cheepie 10' rotomoulded kayak behind the sailboat. (Sloth dictated that I try!) It had squarish vertical stem and stern, no towing eye; it would saw side to side, usually in concert with the Watertender 9.4 dink. I tied the painter first to the bow handle, which soon chafed though. I then rerigged the painter to tow from something solid in the boat. Seemed OK until we were crossing the shipping channel near Annap. The kayak flipped over, filled with water and was generally quite ill-behaved in that position. I dragged the mess out of the channel before I could then work quite hard to recover the boat. So much for sloth!
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