Tow Boat US boards my boat without my permisiom, knowledge, approval and now wants 9K

[Shrew]

Your boat was left unattended and in a state that if allowed to continue would have resulted in the boat likely sinking. The Harbor Master employed a marine towing and salvage company to protect the environment from a fuel spill by salvaging the vessel.

You are now being billed for that salvage. What is occurring is completely normal and completely legal.

If you have comprehensive insurance you will likely be covered, and more than likely subsequently dropped.

My sympathies.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for all the response and great info.


Just to fill in a few blanks.....


My insurance was issued July 1st 2023 after a survey where the boat was found to be " condition is well above boats of similar age and is meticulous maintained" in the words of the surveyor.


The dock master and the live aboard neighbor said there was zero evidence of any spillage or sheen in the water as I asked them and there was no coast guard report. There was also zero chance of the boat sinking. The way my bilges work is that if thr one gets to high. the water will seep into the other engine bilge and that was dry and clean so no chance of sinking. TBUS agreed the boat was not sinking or in any danger of sinking.



My bilges have drip pan under the motors with oil rags and this is where the sheen/oil on the water came from.



yes, what are the chances of a battery charge failure and a dripping ac pipe at the same time. Been boating 45 years and yes, crazy stuff happens. the transformer on sentry battery charger fried and was unforeseen.


The dock master was horrified when he heard the cost and was so apologetic as he said he had no idea what the cost would be. He agreed there was no danger of the boat sinking or anything like that and shut down the ac that caused the high water alarm so there was no chance of the problem getting worse.


He said he should have left it for me to deal with as he knew my return dates. its a transient marina we have used for the past 5 years and we know each other and have a history with them. He just wanted to make sure the ac was the problem and that's why he decided to remove the water.



It was my hope that someone might have had to deal with something similar and have some advice to pass on.


Yes, I can contact my insurance company but then thats what TBUS wants so he can extort me and my insurance company and this type of practice is just so wrong on all accounts. We all end up paying for this and its not okay.

So, did the remediation team show up in HazMat suits and such?

When I was in San Francisco planning to come to Mexico, I thought about having my 15-year old diesel fuel removed as it no longer bore any resemblance to diesel fuel (it reminded me of Linseed Oil). I called around a was shocked to find it was considered hazardous waste and would cost over $4000 to remove 100 gals. My ancient Perkins seemed unphased by the crud so I triple-dosed with Stanadyne and went with the old fuel. Worked fine.

I really feel for your situation. But I have a question for you. Once called, what would you have expected the Sea Tow folks to do? If they ignored the situation and it later proved to be a large waste oil situation, they would have liability.

Tough situation. But sounds like you were the only one with knowledge that the situation was far from dangerous. Everyone else (marina, TBUS) erred on the side of caution.

You may want to ask TBUS what the actual disposal fees were. The stuff had to go somewhere. I would think hazardous material disposal is well tracked down to the ounce.

Best of luck. What a PITA

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

There are two sides to every story.

I would contact the company and say if you have no proof of cleanup materials, hazardous disposal of contaminated materials, or authorization or contract from myself, marina, marine police or USCG, I will make you an offer of $2,500 with a signed invoice indicating that is the total compensation for whatever you may have done.

I see the owner somewhat culpable ( a simple alarm system would have notified you by text or email to the battery voltage diminishing or the bilge pump being activated) for the chain of events. IMO, I would rather make it go away without the insurance company canceling my policy, raising my rates, or requiring an out of water insurance survey.

Ted

This above!

If the work done was legitimate, I can't understand why the company can't or won't provide the owner with an itemized, line item bill to justify the charges. I also can't understand why they won't provide the proof that anything was actually "disposed of" and details of any costs associated with that disposal, if any "disposal" even happened.
Inability, or refusal of the company to provide any proof that anything was actually accomplished . . . . . well, it really smells . . . .

 

[Shaunc]

This above!

If the work done was legitimate, I can't understand why the company can't or won't provide the owner with an itemized, line item bill to justify the charges. I also can't understand why they won't provide the proof that anything was actually "disposed of" and details of any costs associated with that disposal, if any "disposal" even happened.
Inability, or refusal of the company to provide any proof that anything was actually accomplished . . . . . well, it really smells . . . .

My point exactly and the fact that it was dont worry your insurance company will just pay it is not proof anything was done as stated over the phone. He will not put one thing in writing.

 

[Shaunc]

So, did the remediation team show up in HazMat suits and such?

When I was in San Francisco planning to come to Mexico, I thought about having my 15-year old diesel fuel removed as it no longer bore any resemblance to diesel fuel (it reminded me of Linseed Oil). I called around a was shocked to find it was considered hazardous waste and would cost over $4000 to remove 100 gals. My ancient Perkins seemed unphased by the crud so I triple-dosed with Stanadyne and went with the old fuel. Worked fine.

I really feel for your situation. But I have a question for you. Once called, what would you have expected the Sea Tow folks to do? If they ignored the situation and it later proved to be a large waste oil situation, they would have liability.




Tough situation. But sounds like you were the only one with knowledge that the situation was far from dangerous. Everyone else (marina, TBUS) erred on the side of caution.

You may want to ask TBUS what the actual disposal fees were. The stuff had to go somewhere. I would think hazardous material disposal is well tracked down to the ounce.

Best of luck. What a PITA

Peter

Thats the problem, I NEVER called TBUS or even spoke to them until the so called work was performed.


TBUS claims he had to show up in hazmat suits with a "team" of guys. Strange that no one else saw that.


The dock master had assessed there was no danger of the boat sinking or any further substantial disaster could occur. He was the one that asked TBUS for help after he had been on board and shut off the ac unit.



That means that both the marina and TBUS were fully aware that there was no further danger on anything serious happening before TBUS decided to board my boat. Even the dock master said that if he had any idea that it would be even 1K, he would have waited for my approval 1st.

For those non Floridians, nobody turns ac off on boats in July whether you are there or not. The mold growth would be insane. I liveaboard full time and seldom are away from my boat very long. I have a Seasy Clean system that prevents strainers for ac systems getting clogged.

TBUS though that, here is a free payday for moving a bilge of water and dumping it in the marina's oil pit and then I would allow them to rip off insurance companies. People like this should be out of business. Ripping anyone off, even the insurance company is just not right.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm still not understanding. If there was no danger or issues, why did the marina call TBUS?

I would think a "team" of guys in HazMat suits would standout. It's hard to understand what they're making a claim for. I could possibly see their point, but without seeing their itemized claim, hard to understand.

Peter

 

[Shaunc]

I'm still not understanding. If there was no danger or issues, why did the marina call TBUS?

I would think a "team" of guys in HazMat suits would standout. It's hard to understand what they're making a claim for. I could possibly see their point, but without seeing their itemized claim, hard to understand.

Peter

TBUS is docked in the Marina and apparently the dock master happened to ask TBUS for help, not knowing what it would result in.


Thats why I have asked for an itemized bill many times and he has never produced one to date.

 

[sunchaser]

SC
Your protestations and thoughts assume a rational caring insurance company. TBUS is not necessarily in that mindset nor are too many marinas. Our marina and insurance company are borderline paranoid on absentee owners and who is the boat watcher. Our boat watcher is approved by the marina and insurance company with contact info posted on the vessel.

I maintain you’re better off to not PO the marina nor your insurance carrier and just pay up. As noted, you left your vessel unattended and it cried for help with no material damage. Your marina and TBUS did precisely what they are trained to do.

 

[mvweebles]

SC
Your protestations and thoughts assume a rational caring insurance company. TBUS is not necessarily in that mindset nor are too many marinas. Our marina and insurance company are borderline paranoid on absentee owners and who is the boat watcher. Our boat watcher is approved by the marina and insurance company with contact info posted on the vessel.

I maintain you’re better off to not PO the marina nor your insurance carrier and just pay up. As noted, you left your vessel unattended and it cried for help with no material damage. Your marina and TBUS did precisely what they are trained to do.

I agree as long as he receives an itemized bill and the charges are within range of comparable services. To date, OP states he has not received anything. Seems odd but if that's the case, then hard to fault his sense of outrage. On the other hand, until there's a bill, there's nothing owing and certainly nothing to negotiate. Even the insurance company would insist.

Peter

 

[TJM]

I think this thread is spiraling. A neighbor of ours had a bilge pump that discharged some oil overboard. A similar response was initiated, tow boat came with booms and socks to wrap around the boat. NO HAZMAT suits, no alarms, very discreet project. All booms were collected in a 55 gallon drum and shipped away. Marina did not want the bad publicity in our small quaint town. Case closed.
Maritime Law mixes with Environmental people of "what if" scenarios.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. S. As to your "clarification" posts. Ah. I see where you're coming from now. WAY above my pay grade, at this point. ONLY thing I can suggest is get as much in writing as possible.

 

[BruceK]

Might be a good start to request a written itemized account from the Towboat franchisee? Maybe with a cc to Towboat US head office? Be careful not to defame.

 

[SteveK]

Anyone else wonder how many of these bills are quietly paid by owners to avoid an increase in insurance premium. I can see it happening. In the past few years I am asked by insurance agent on renewal if any events occurred below the deductible that were not reported.
WHAT, you want me to report when I do not need to claim as it is below the deductible, for what purpose?

 

[O C Diver]

Anyone else wonder how many of these bills are quietly paid by owners to avoid an increase in insurance premium. I can see it happening. In the past few years I am asked by insurance agent on renewal if any events occurred below the deductible that were not reported.
WHAT, you want me to report when I do not need to claim as it is below the deductible, for what purpose?

I'm not sure where my threshold for paying before filing a claim is, but it's certainly in the thousands based on being home ported in Florida. More importantly, I wouldn't want to have the insurance company question my competence of running or maintaining my boat. Now if someone stole my dinghy, I guessing filing a claim probably wouldn't make me look incompetent.

Ted

 

[AlanT]

Pretty iffy internet where I am currently so unable read all the replies and consequently I apologize if this has already been covered...

It seems to me that the initial action was by the marina in contacting TBUS and everything followed from that decision. I assume the boatowner has a contract with the marina and that contract likely spells out the rights of both parties and specifically what right of access/action the marina has over the boat. In my contract the marina can do pretty much anything, including cutting me loose if they deem it necessary. I would start there.

~A

 

[twistedtree]

I would turn it over to your insurance company, along with all the info you have suggesting that TBUS is gouging you/them. This is a valid insurance claim, and it's the insurance company's responsibility to handle it. In fact, all the policies I have had REQUIRE that you let them defend themselves and you. This is part of what you pay for in your policy. Plus, TBUS has lawyered-up.


Gather as much info as you can from the dock master and neighbor about how much time TBUS actually spent on the boat, whether there were hazmat suits and barrels of water removed, receipts for disposal of hazmat, etc. Did any of that actually happen? If they don't have receipts for disposal of hazmat, the EPA might be interested in where it went?


But pass it all on to the insurance company. It's their job to handle this, and again, and actually think you are required to let them handle it.


Also, lodge a complaint about this franchise with the TBUS mothership. TBUS has a reputation to uphold. I'm sure they do lots of legitimate work, but there are always bad apples.

 

[jgtrucking]

I lost my patience about half way through... the only boat that wouldnt have a touch of sheen from the bilge is one that never runs. Once a year i spray my Engine room down with dawn and water. No leaks, if thrte were there are catch pans anyway, but just from the engines breathing. And not just our old engines either. Theres a 2019 with volvo d11s, no leaks, no nothing, but the ER is starting to have that oily feel to the walls.

With a lawyer involved, you either have to involve your ins, your own lawyer, or give him a pair of cement shoes. I'll keep my choice to myself.
If they started at whatever it was 16k?? Then worked down to 5k, have no proof of what they did, they look terrible in the credibility department.
Only two things can ruin a good day at sea... a lawyer or a politician.

 

[mvweebles]

I would turn it over to your insurance company, along with all the info you have suggesting that TBUS is gouging you/them. This is a valid insurance claim, and it's the insurance company's responsibility to handle it. In fact, all the policies I have had REQUIRE that you let them defend themselves and you. This is part of what you pay for in your policy. Plus, TBUS has lawyered-up.


Gather as much info as you can from the dock master and neighbor about how much time TBUS actually spent on the boat, whether there were hazmat suits and barrels of water removed, receipts for disposal of hazmat, etc. Did any of that actually happen? If they don't have receipts for disposal of hazmat, the EPA might be interested in where it went?


But pass it all on to the insurance company. It's their job to handle this, and again, and actually think you are required to let them handle it.


Also, lodge a complaint about this franchise with the TBUS mothership. TBUS has a reputation to uphold. I'm sure they do lots of legitimate work, but there are always bad apples.

I reread the OP. He did contact his insurance broker who advised he get more information about the TBUS services, and also put the insurance company on notice. Sounds like he did. The TBUS folks didn't respond until a demand letter for $5k shows up. While I understand the OPs frustration, the high water alarm is an important fact that works against him. Neither the marina or the TBUS folks would know what they were facing. I know the leak was abated by the marina, but the OP still had several shop-vacs full of bilge water to remove. While in hindsight, TBUS did more than necessary (assuming they did what they said they did which is uncertain given the OPs statements), they have to err on side of caution and do as much as they can.

I agree with TT, since there is now a formal demand letter from TBUS, I don't see a path for the OP except to turn it over to the insurance company.

Peter

 

[CharlieO.]

Tell them to send you the invoice for the $5000, then send that one to your insurance.

Also, they are not going to sue your insurance company, they will file a suit against you then you turn that over to your insurance company for representation.

 

[psneeld]

The salvage/assistance tower I worked for would not board even a sinking boat unless given permission by the owner or authorities. There were a few exceptions.

Little chance of getting paid and a higher chsnce of being into litigation if things aren't perfect.

 

[twistedtree]

I reread the OP. He did contact his insurance broker who advised he get more information about the TBUS services, and also put the insurance company on notice. Sounds like he did. The TBUS folks didn't respond until a demand letter for $5k shows up. While I understand the OPs frustration, the high water alarm is an important fact that works against him. Neither the marina or the TBUS folks would know what they were facing. I know the leak was abated by the marina, but the OP still had several shop-vacs full of bilge water to remove. While in hindsight, TBUS did more than necessary (assuming they did what they said they did which is uncertain given the OPs statements), they have to err on side of caution and do as much as they can.

I agree with TT, since there is now a formal demand letter from TBUS, I don't see a path for the OP except to turn it over to the insurance company.

Peter

I agree there are plenty of questions about who, what, when, why, and we aren't going to get to the bottom of it here. To me the question is who's going to hash this out with TBUS. I think the insurance company is in the best position to do that, and if the OP wants the insurance company to pay whatever final amount is reached, I suspect they have an obligation to turn it over to the insurance company.

 

[psneeld]

I know that some of the salvage and basic job invoices we had.... discussed binding arbitration if any disputes arose... but with nothing signed (yet) .... that may be an option or the direction it heads if a quick settlement/agreement isnt reached.

 

[rgano]

The BoatUS guy backing way down from his original 12K price seems to indicate that he was caught out over charging for services like pollution cleanup he probably short-circuited by tossing the oil sorbs into the closest trashcan. If he truly is going th lawyer route, paying him off with 5K cash seems like a cheap escape. Next time secure all through hulls after turning everything off but the battery charger.

 

[cobradoc57]

Florida Law

Anyone who sues you in FL is entitled by FL law to your insurance information and your limits of liability. FL is one of the most litigious states in the country. Your insurance company will likely recommend a settlement offer, because it is far less expensive than going to court for the amount of money you’re talking about.

 

[Landshark]

The other legal issues aside, why would you leave the AC operating for many days when not on the vessel?

 

[rslifkin]

The other legal issues aside, why would you leave the AC operating for many days when not on the vessel?

In some climates a closed up boat left alone without A/C running will be well over 100 degrees and very humid inside. So there's a mold risk, the fridge likely won't be able to keep up (and will need to be emptied and shut down as a result), etc.

 

[Landshark]

Running the AC on an unattended boat for days on end is an invitation to this sort of problem. The boat getting hot is not an issue. Mold is something all boaters must deal with. As far as the frig not being able to keep-up, well that's a separate problem. But then if the AC crapped and took down the battery, would the frig stop operating also?

 

[rslifkin]

Personally, I have reasonable remote monitoring and look at it as "if I can't trust systems like AC to run for a few days unattended, then there's something wrong and I need to fix it"

 

[CarlF]

Welcome to Admiralty Law!

BoatUS is really two businesses. One is a tow boat company that for a few hundred dollars a year will tow you in from a soft grounding, out of gas, or similiar. The other business is as a salvor working under the US Admiralty Courts when the boat was in danger of sinking.

The Salavage Laws are ancient. Started by Lloyds of London in the 1600's. At the time Llloyds was unhappy that too many large sailing ships were sinking with expensive cargoes insured by LLoyds. They wanted guys to risk their lives to save the ships so came up with "No Cure, No Pay" salvage contract where the salvor gets nothing if he doesn't save the ship but gets a huge "reward" for risking his life and vessel to save LLoyds some insurance money. This is little changed in the last 400 years. As I write this there are huge salvage ships wandering the seas hoping for some commercial vessel to get in trouble. The first salvor who gets a line on the ship will get the court award which can be be as high as the value of the ship and cargo.

Salvors can board any unocuppied vessel without permission and pretty much do anything they want to save the boat. Salvage is federal law - it is not subject to state consumer protection or contract law. They have their own court, lawyers, and judges. The Supreme Court has repeatedly supported large salvage awards.

After a successful salvage, the salvor negotiates with the insurance company. If they can't reach agreement, they go to Admiralty court who determines an award. The award has nothing to do with normal hourly rates. It's often 30%-50% of the value of the boat. If the insurance company or owner doesn't pay the salvor, the CG seizes the boat under court order, sells it at auction, and pays the salvor from the proceeds.

The OP has to get out of the middle here. The boat was at risk of sinking. The salvor has all the leverage. $10,000 is incredibly cheap for salvage. It could be several times that if it goes to court. I have a friend who's insurance company once paid a $50,000 salvage claim to move his boat from one dock to another in a storm. They argued the first dock was going to break free. The dock was still there after the storm but that didn't matter.

This is between the insurance company and the salvor. The insurance company will either negotiate an amount with the salvor or total the boat and pay you the insurace while giving the salvor title to the boat. You really don't have any say here. And it will work out for you since the claim is presumably well below the insured value of the boat.

BTW - if a salvor ever hands you a salvage contract, sign it. Do not refuse it without a written OK from your insuarnce company. If the boat sinks after you turned down salvage, your insurarnce company will deny your insurance claim saying that you had an obligation to use the salvor and were negligiant.

 

[psneeld]

Running the AC on an unattended boat for days on end is an invitation to this sort of problem. The boat getting hot is not an issue. Mold is something all boaters must deal with. As far as the frig not being able to keep-up, well that's a separate problem. But then if the AC crapped and took down the battery, would the frig stop operating also?

I think I see you are homeported in Anchorage, AK?

Not sure when you left Florida but hardly a soul down here doesn't leave their A/C on for days while they are gone. Almost Every Sea Ray owner I knew (worked for a Sea Ray Dealership many years ago) in NJ left their A/C on all summer.

While I agree it is an invitation for a problem, the odds of having a problem if you do proper maintenance are pretty low. However the odds are very high your boat will be a mold child for years if you don't leave it on A/C or humidity control. Most people don't like mold and take the risk.