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Old 08-11-2009, 11:52 PM   #21
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RE: Totally Trawler

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nomadwilly wrote:

hain is almost unessessary. They say when the load is max the cantenary becomes so small it's ineffective in keeping the angle of pull on the anchor low enough to do any good.
That's interesting as the instructions that came with our Rocna as well as the advice I got in person from the Rocna company in New Zealand and the licensed Rocna manufacturer in Vancouver, BC all strongly recommended using all-chain rode.

Perhaps they talk about a nylon rode in conjunction with cruising in the southwestern Pacific where the anchor was developed.* As I understand it, and according to many of the testimonials I read from people who use Rocnas in that part of the world, riding out storms or very strong winds (50+ mph) for long periods of time in exposed anchorages is not uncommon.* Under these conditions, a mostly nylon rode would obviously be the way to go as there would certainy be a risk of pulling all the catenary out of all-chain.* Also lot of the testimonials from that part of the world were from sailboaters, and they tend to be more concerned about weight in the bow that trawler operators.* So maybe Rocna is trying to make the point that even if conditions and/or your boat configuration dictate a lightweight rode in your bow, the Rocna will still perform as advertised.

But in this part of the world we rarely have anchoring conditions like that.* I forget the exact wording of the Rocna instruction sheet--- it's up on the boat--- but it said something along the lines of "...we strongly recommend the use of all-chain rode with the Rocna...." and so on.* And when I first spoke with the owner of Suncoast Marine in Vancouver where we got our Rocna and he asked me what kind of anchor rode we currently had on the boat, when I said 3/8" all chain he said "Perfect. That's what we recommend up here."

So I can only go on the recommendations Rocna gave me at the time.

But regardless of whether one uses all-chain or a combination rode, the design and construction of the Rocna brings the same advantages in terms of setting and holding.

*
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:22 AM   #22
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RE: Totally Trawler

Danforth . the inventor of the lightweight anchoring system (used in WWII for landing craft) did not reccommend ANY chain till the mid 60's.

Many adverts in boating mags simply shoe a line with thimble shakeled to the anchor.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:26 AM   #23
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RE: Totally Trawler

Gees Guys,
I must admit the number of people I have met who have come unstuck with nylon/silver rope rode is far above the numbers who have all chain.
I have just upgraded my chain and gypsy to 1/2 " to ensure that I have the protection my boat & I deserve when the wind gets up and I am anchored in the reef and no where to go.
Better chain in the the water than rope being streched and chaffed.
But horses for courses and if rope floats your boat then so be it,but me I will always go for 100% chain for normal anchoring.

Whenh I am in deeper water 50 to 100 mts the I will use a star anchor with 15 mts chain and rope rode.

Benn
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:19 AM   #24
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RE: Totally Trawler

Of the two boats that sailed backwards past us in Garden Bay a few nights ago, neither had all chain rode, both were combination. Of the 5 trawler style boats I could see, all had chain coming onto the deck. I can't say they were all chain rode, but we were in 40+ feet of water so I presume at least the first 150' were all chain.

My low tech, 40# SeaHook held my 40' trawler just fine even in the muddy bottom. The gusts were just over 30 MPH with only 20 or so sustained. Not a real hurricane test by any means but very very normal for this part of the world.

Ken
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:40 AM   #25
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RE: Totally Trawler

Ken,Ben,FF and Marin,
I have always thought the catenary w all chain would be assured. But they do make a point** ..* when the wind screams and you need the catenary the most it's the least. I had no idea it would disappear. After all I've said about all chain rode being too heavy w little or no gain I may deserve to be beat up a bit but this isn't my stuff I'm talking about** ..* it's all on the Ronca web site.* Go take a look.

Eric Henning
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:17 PM   #26
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RE: Totally Trawler

There is a photograph in Earl Hinz's book "The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring" of a USCG cutter in a heavy storm.* They put out two anchors on all-chain rode.* The pressure of the wind and waves took all the catenary out of the chain until both chains were bar-tight.* One chain broke and the photo was taken from a helicopter shortly before the second chain broke.* The chain is an absolutely straight line from the bow to the anchor.*

When you get to this point, you might as well be connected to the anchor by a steel rod.* Whether the chain breaks first or the deck fittings rip out is determined only by the strength of the deck fittings--- once the catenary is out of the chain it has no shock absorbing quality left.

And here is a direct lift from the Rocna user's guide on their website*for their anchor.* They have not changed their recommendation since I talked to them.* Note that they insert the word "preferable" with the use of chain for all the rode.
<font size="1"></font>what to use for rode
*
We strongly encourage the use of chain, either for all your rode (preferable) or as a leader of a length at least equal to that of the boat. It is important not to subject any rope portion of the rode to abrasion on rock or coral. It also helps prevent the boat sailing around the anchor. The use of high tensile (G70) chain can save a considerable amount of weight.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:54 PM   #27
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RE: Totally Trawler

Well duh! If your chain gets straight, you don't have enough chain out! You need to let out more, tie on some nylon rode if you have it, put out a sentinel, etc.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:20 PM   #28
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RE: Totally Trawler

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Well duh! If your chain gets straight, you don't have enough chain out! You need to let out more, tie on some nylon rode if you have it, put out a sentinel, etc.
Well, duh!* If your ship uses chain for rode--- and I'm not aware of any military ships of any size that do otherwise--- and you've got it all out and it's still bar tight, guess what's gonna happen?

There's theory and there's reality.* Best not to confuse them when things go all to sh*t.

*
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:01 PM   #29
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RE: Totally Trawler

"They say when the load is max the cantenary becomes so small it's ineffective in keeping the angle of pull on the anchor low enough to do any good."

That's a true statement. Here's some more::

If you're out in 100 knot winds you're likely to take all the catenary out of ANY rode. The key for me is being a smart enough mariner to watch the weather and be protected from the winds or other conditions that would overtax my equipment. I think most everyone on the list does this, I'm sure Willy and Marin and the others in the PNW/Alaska don't go when the weather is too bad. You hurricane boaters are on your own.

If you use all chain rode in AVERAGE conditions, which seems to be the case for me and my boat 99.xx % of the time, there is catenary all the time. And, with my 15 foot nylon snubber with rubber mooring snubber inline, I got zero, none, no jerking or noise from my anchor chain when others were breaking loose from the bottom. You can't build an anchor system that someone can't come up with a hypothetical storm to defeat it.

ken
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:57 PM   #30
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RE: Totally Trawler

What Ken said.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:36 PM   #31
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RE: Totally Trawler

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Marin wrote:


Keith wrote:

Well duh! If your chain gets straight, you don't have enough chain out! You need to let out more, tie on some nylon rode if you have it, put out a sentinel, etc.
Well, duh!* If your ship uses chain for rode--- and I'm not aware of any military ships of any size that do otherwise--- and you've got it all out and it's still bar tight, guess what's gonna happen?

There's theory and there's reality.* Best not to confuse them when things go all to sh*t.

*

Then you were dangerously unprepared. Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't.

*
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:44 PM   #32
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RE: Totally Trawler

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Keith wrote:Then you were dangerously unprepared. Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't.
Okay, then how much chain is enough?* In the case of the USCG cutter that goes out into nasty weather to rescue folks and might get caught in a situation where they have to use the anchors to hold them off a lee shore, how much chain should they have if they are going to consider every possible scenario?* Five hundred feet?* A thousand feet?* Half a mile?* One mile?* Three miles?*

I don't know how much chain a cutter carries but I suspect it's more than the 250' carried by many trawler owners.* I'm guessing that, since they have a pretty good pile of statistics on the sorts of winds and waves they have to go out in, the vessels and their equipment are designed and sized to cope with the "typical" extremes they may encounter.* Obviously there is a point of diminishing return.* You can put a mile of chain on your boat but then your boat has to be set up to carry and handle it which will probably seriously compromise some other aspect of the boat's ability to carry out its mission.* If your boat is a fast planing or semi-planing rescue craft, the primary goal is to get where you need to go fast.* Installing an anchor locker and windlass to deal with a mile of chain is probably going to defeat the go-fast ability to quite a degree.

So I don't know how much chain the cutter in question had, but I'd be willing to bet the amount was based on a fairly realistic idea of what it would have to cope with.* But storms have a bad habit of not adhering to the instructions that came with your anchor and rode.* So the cutter let out every inch of rode it had and both rodes still went bar tight and eventually broke.

Armchair quarterbacking is easy, safe, and fun.* But I suspect if you'd gone out to that cutter while they were trying to figure out how to get themselves off the lee shore after both their anchor chains broke and lectured them on how they should have installed another 1,000 feet of chain to cope with the conditions before going out in an attempt to rescue the boat crew they were responding to, they'd have told you to piss off.


*
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:03 PM   #33
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RE: Totally Trawler

"Either you didn't have enough chain on board to weather the conditions you went out in, or didn't pay attention to the weather and went out when you shouldn't."

You're absolutely 100% correct. Sometimes our military and other armed forces go out when they shouldn't. But you know what? That's what they pay them to do and they volunteered to go do it. They go out when every reasonable person knows they shouldn't. Thank God or whoever your supreme being is, that there are people like that. People who will sacrifice their safety and sometimes their lives to help others. Our Coast Guard whom we see fairly often, is the most visible example of that. Can they prepare for every possible emergency they may face? No. It's not reasonable to think they can. They equip and train themselves to do the best they can with the equipment they have. Sometimes they get in situations that bad things happen no matter what they do.

I have the choice to take my boat out or stay in a safer location. I generally sit it out, which I did in Nanaimo last Saturday, 8' seas in the Strait of Georgia, and again on Monday, 27 knot SE winds. No problem for me. Had there been a boat in distress, the Coasties would have gone out there, no questions asked.

Ken
PS, as I type this there is a 50 some odd foot Canadian CG cutter tied to the dock next to mine. Remind me to tell them thanks again tomorrow when I see them.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:31 PM   #34
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RE: Totally Trawler

Here we go... you guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Did I say anything bad about our military????

Marin, you're just going to argue theoretical **** forever. I stick by my statement. If you're not prepared to anchor, don't. Head up into the weather. I don't understand what point you are now trying to make except that I was wrong.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:12 PM   #35
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RE: Totally Trawler

Hey guys,

Cool your jets and look up this site.
1.* Click "west marine rocna anchor"
2.* Click "Rocna anchor independent reviews"
3.* Go to the bottom of page and click on "anchor articles"
4.* Click on "Catenary and scope in anchor rode"

As an alternative try "peter smith .net.nz"

He says at one point "We mighnt conclude that chain is entirely pointless , and 100% rope may be used". He points out that other elements of rode performance may be enhanced but not holding performance. I was wrong** .. the stuff I was talking about was not in the Rocna site but I got there through the Rocna site. I think the man who wrote "Catenary and scope in anchor rode" is the designer of the Rocna anchor. This is high level anchor technology.

Eric Henning
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:37 PM   #36
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RE: Totally Trawler

I thought there was a pretty clear chain of thought:

One person citing the military ship that had two anchors out, stretched their chain tight, lost all cantenary and broke loose.

Someone stated that if they were stretched that tight then they should have had longer chain.

Then the question was raised, how much is enough?

Another person asking that if there wasn't cantenary in all chain rode when it was needed the most, then why have it?

Another person stating that if they were in that position then they should have stayed home.

And my comment that maybe they didn't have the option to stay home.

This is just my impression of what the posts said. And in my mind I don't see the argument for the sake of argument. It seems to follow for me. I don't think anyone is wrong. I think we all have different circumstances and we all solve them differently. I have 250 feet of all chain rode. I haven't seen any good argument against that. I did see two good arguments against a rope rode coming on the deck as they slid past me a few nights ago. Did they come loose because of the rope? probably not. Might they have stayed put with all chain? Maybe. I anchored 25 + years with combination rode. That wasn't wrong for the boat I had and the circumstances I was in.

Keith, you boat in hurricane country, I've already admitted I don't understand that. I do love the scenery in Galveston though, it is gorgeous.

Ken
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:50 AM   #37
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RE: Totally Trawler

"Okay, then how much chain is enough?"

About 200 ft will do , then the nylon would be added.

The big hassle is compared to a storm nylon rode the chain is really weak.

So if the weakest link is that ton of chain , why bother?

Of course IF you have the room a complete storm anchor can be deployed , and the chain simply to limit some swing in the gusts.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:49 PM   #38
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Totally Trawler

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Keith wrote:

I stick by my statement. If you're not prepared to anchor, don't. Head up into the weather. I don't understand what point you are now trying to make except that I was wrong.
I have no argument about your statement at all as it applies to us recreational boaters.* But the discussion got going when Eric stated that he did not realize chain could lose all its catenary.* I responded by citing the photo and example in Earl Hinz's book in which a USCG cutter tried to hold itself off a lee shore with both its anchors and the all-chain rodes went bar tight and broke.* Then you came in with what I interpreted as an implication that if the rode the cutter had on board wasn't adequate for the conditions, they shouldn't have gone out.* Or should have installed a more appropriate rode before it went out.

But I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would disagree with your statement that a boater should not go out into conditions he is not prepared to deal with, or should outfit his boat to safely deal with the conditions he's going to venture out into.

The folks in the USCG, Navy, etc. don't have the luxury of staying at home if the weather becomes extreme.* They have to try to manage with what they've got.*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of August 2009 07:09:52 PM
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Old 08-13-2009, 02:16 PM   #39
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Totally Trawler

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nomadwilly wrote:

He points out that other elements of rode performance may be enhanced but not holding performance. I was wrong** .. the stuff I was talking about was not in the Rocna site but I got there through the Rocna site. I think the man who wrote "Catenary and scope in anchor rode" is the designer of the Rocna anchor. This is high level anchor technology.
I read the article in its entirety and there's nothing Pete says that I would have any quarrel with.* His main point is that you don't need all-chain to experience good holding with the Rocna.* He never recommends AGAINST all chain.** In fact*as*you say*he*cites several advantages of all chain with regard to chafe protection and reducing boat swing under normal anchoring conditions.* *And the company's own instruction sheet that comes with their anchor when you buy one recommends all-chain.

Pete is looking at anchoring from a somewhat different perspective than most of us do.* His own cruising is in pretty heavy-duty waters, with high winds, sometimes deep anchoring depths, and exposed anchorages.* So his whole perspective-- and the motivation for his development of the Rocna in the first place--- is based on his own sailing experience in his own waters.* In fact he originally had no intention of marketing the Rocna at all.* He was just interested in keeping his own boat in place under the often tough conditions he encountered.

And Pete is the consumate product marketer.* Once he decided to put the Rocna into commercial production, he's lost no opportunity to promote it.* Many of his customers and potential customers are sailboaters, particularly in his part of the world, and these folks are much more concerned about weight on the boat than the typical trawler owner.* Hence his point that no matter what you attach to a Rocna--- all-chain, combination, or just nylon (although he doesn't recommend this)---- the anchor is going to hold like holy hell once it's set and won't*depend on the rode to ensure its holding power.* If I was trying to sell a new anchor type to some pretty discriminating customers*I'd say the same thing.

But even taking everything he says as gospel, there is no denying that using an all-chain rode in the conditions where all-chain is appropriate is certainly not going to reduce the Rocna's holding power and it may even enhance it under some conditions.* Which is why, I suspect, the company continues to recommend all-chain to the buyers of its anchors.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of August 2009 07:16:23 PM
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:20 AM   #40
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RE: Totally Trawler

On my way back from Ketchikan I spent some time talking w a fisherman from Craig. We got into anchors and he wanted to know what I though of the Bruce. I told him about our recent discussion on anchors and he said another fisherman was cussin his Bruce so he offered him $50 for it and he really likes it. Most of the time he anchors in the same spots but he's experienced quite a number of gales and is real happy w his 70lb Bruce. His boat is only 9 tons so he would brobably be fine w a Navy type of 70lbs.
Marin, Ive been looking at that Rocna and it looks better all the time. I see West Marine has them now and that they are out of stock in some sizes. I still don't see how the boat half of an all chain rode can be justified. I think trawler owners just feel more like "trawler men" w all chain.

Eric Henning
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