Took the plunge..Now what ?

[Dswizzler]

<table style="width:100%;height:100%;" align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top" width="100%">Took the plunge and put an offer in on the 58 Vantare.The offer was accepted and now looking to schedule the surveys. I was able to run the engines and generators and took oil samples. The sample* came back showing high level of iron which could be just from lack of use and a rust build up. But one engine (these are DD 6v92T with 1800 hours ) had sodium at higher then expected levels, which could be a coolant leak. Test indicated* Glycol at 1000 ppm and recommended oil be changed and repairs made to correct.

Not sure if these are red flags to run away or just what. All of the yard folks I've talked to say it could be minor ....or major won't know till you opened it up. Considering that bill could run $35,000-40,000 for a complete rebuilt, that is a huge bet. Considering this repo and sold as is where is, a great price seems to be a relative term. Any suggestions on how to trouble shoot the problem ? I've heard you and pressure check the coolant system. But if it leaks...I forgot what that was suppose to tell me.

This is my first walk into the diesel world, so I'm drinking from the fire hose right now. Figured I'd hold off on the hull survey till I get a better handle on the engines. Adding to my concern is if the boat was neglected and one engine has a problem ...not sure how far behind the other engine might be. Any suggestions ? Running away and trying another boat is still an option, but the rest of the boat seems very manageable.

Thanks in advance,

Dswizzler </td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[skipperdude]

Their *is a tester to determine*if exhaust gasses*are leaking into your coolant. You test it at the Radiator.**Common in the automotive repair industry. It will tel you if exaust gas is present in your coolant. This would indicate a head problem.

*I can't recall what it is called. It is bulb type turkey baster looking gizmo.
Perhaps someone on the board knows of which I speak.

SD

 

[Tonic]

Mark, I'm new at this myself and still know less than I should about diesels in general.* I also know nothing at all about detroit diesels.* Fortunately, the John Deeres on my boat were a re-power with less than 1000 hours, you could eat you dinner off of them, and the PO was available and very helpful.*

Anyway, you say one engine has a known problem.* Coupled with your oil samples I think I would be seeking a very good deisel mechanic to examine (survey?) the engines as much as is practical.* Even if they turn out to be OK, it would probably be money well spent if you can pick his brains at the same time.*

BTW...(If I have the right boat?) your port engine seems very discolored in areas (cylinder head?).* Maybe someone here can tell you if that is normal or what it might mean.

 

[mspaugy]

I am new to big boats, just starting to shop but I was a marine diesel mechanic/operator for 27 years and have extensive experience with detroits. I am now a Marine Surveyor. Detroits are not known as fuel sippers and I think they are still more expensive to repair than many engines out there. There is a water cooling system test device that connects in the place of your expansion tank cap and you pressurize teh system without it running. we used to stick a dye and sorry I can not remember the name of it in the system, run it until it was hot then shut it down and do the pressure test. I do not recall what type of inspection covers teh detroits used to have but we removed what was available and checked the oil later for signs of water. while it is true that you can accumulate rust from long periods of engines being idle I do not think that is teh case and if it were I would expect the other engine to have the same signs? If you buy the boat you can hire folks to do a lube oil flush with hot oil and a muslin bag filter system to clean the engione up some or you can do it yourself with many many oil and filter changes. More engines go bad from lack of use than running them now a days. If you have any questions about thios or other boat related items that I may be able to help with feel free to e-mail me at spaugym@yahoo.com oh and the rust on the block is not normal*IMO.*


-- Edited by mspaugy on Thursday 30th of September 2010 06:24:12 PM

 

[JMYSS]

A couple of questions:

1.Who did you submit the sample too? I use kits from "Sea Kits" or Gregory Poole Oil Lab (cat dealer)for all of my clients and we pull and oil sample everytime we do an oil change, even if the owner does not request it. I good lab will give you results that not only indicate what is in it but can tell you where (what parts of engine) the reading came from based on the engine type/model and oil type. While oil samples will not tell you everything, if submitted to a good lab, they can tell you ALOT. Iron is probably from sitting up for too long but

2. I am not familiar with detroits, but in most cases I have if sodium (salt water) and glycol (coolant) are present you can have a problem with the exhaust manifold(both contaminents), mixing elbow(salt water/sodium), oil cooler(usually only sea water cooled), after cooler, some or both, and maybe the head...oil cooler being the cheapest to fix in my opinion.

3. Have a decent mechanic pressure test the coolant side. You can get a quality test kit at Carquest for about $200. Whatever the cap is rated for on your coolant side (probably around 15psi) it should be pressurized to that level and watch it for at least 15 minutes to make sure it does not lose pressure.

4. Where is the boat located? I would'nt drop the deal just yet but it would probably be worth your money to have a full engine survey done and ask around for a while for a reputable detroit mechanic. Then ask them how busy they are. If they tell you they can work on it tommorrow, be weary of what they tell you. If they put you on the schedule 2-4 weeks out, feel much better about using them.....

That is not alot of hours, but if they have not been maintained (zincs changed, oil changed, heat exchangers cleaned, etc) you might have to put some money into them. I have no affiliation with it at all, but another forum where you can ask engine specific questions for your make/model is boatdiesel.com .....

 

[Egregious]

JMYSS wrote:



*Then ask them how busy they are. If they tell you they can work on it tommorrow, be weary of what they tell you. If they put you on the schedule 2-4 weeks out, feel much better about using them.....

I second that statement, excellent advice...

*

 

[Dswizzler]

Funny but there was no comment about any water in the oil, but it did call out coolant contaimination in the oil* and glycol tested strong positive 1000ppm. This as a test down by Paterson CAT. Under the heading Oil Condition Particile count, W was N..so I'm assuming that means no water found in the oil. Going to try and test the raditor this weekend. Thanks for all the input..another step down the road.

I'll keep you posted,

 

[Doc]

Those 92's are wet sleeved. Could be a bad liner seal.

An older DD mechanic should be able to give you a pretty good idea as to condition.

 

[Dswizzler]

Thanks for all the input,The engine survey and sea trail are scheduled for the 13th if that goies well, we'll hual it on the 14th and check out the hull. Fluid samples show one good engine, two good transmissions,* raised question makes on the generators and port engines. No show stoppers yet. Keep you posted.

Thanks,

Dswizzler

 

[RickB]

Tonic wrote:
BTW...(If I have the right boat?) your port engine seems very discolored in areas (cylinder head?).* Maybe someone here can tell you if that is normal or what it might mean.

*It just looks like the head may have been off or replaced without painting at some point. Rust on those areas is not the end of the world or even a problem. It just looks bad and indicates someone didn't care much about the appearance, which is a shame on a "yacht."

 

[Dswizzler]

You are absolutely correct, someone had the heads off and put a pair that were not painted. While I was worried when I first saw that, now I'm more concerned about the level of coolant found in that engine. It is unclear at this point if that coolent is just sloppy left overs , after the heads were off, or if it still has a slow leak, from a head gasket. I'm trying to work with a good surveyor, who will do more then just look at the blocks to determine what needs to be done to correct the problem. Once the problem is corrected, I'd plan to paint the heads. Got to have the room looking good as well as functional.

 

[RickB]

Dswizzler wrote:*It is unclear at this point if that coolent is just sloppy left overs , after the heads were off, or if it still has a slow leak, from a head gasket. I'm trying to work with a good surveyor, who will do more then just look at the blocks to determine what needs to be done to correct the problem.

I would change the oil and take another oil sample after a sea trial. The last thing I would do is involve a "surveyor" at this point.

Sodium often shows up in oil samples for no discernible reason. We do routine oil sampling of engines and that is the one consistent "outlyer" that seems to show up. It can come from a sweaty finger on the sample bottle or test point. The only way to know for sure is to change oil and test again with particular care as to how the samples are taken.

It also shows why oil sampling has to be a continuous and regular procedure rather than a snapshot. You need to know the trend and its relationship to the engine operating parameters.

Also I see that in your first post you mention sodium (but no level)*and then shift to glycol. Is it one or both? What testing method did the lab use?*

Just for the record, 1000ppm is a critical level for glycol and if that is the case then you have a problem that*can lead to serious bearing damage. When were the heads changed and why? The glycol could be the result of sloppy work at that time. *

 

[Dswizzler]

No maintenance records found onboard, but the heads were changed out. No idea why. Sodium level was 117. Glycol tested postive* 1000ppm. These rading were all on the port motor only. Starboard motor appears ok, just needs an oil change. Had Peterson Catapilller run the samples not sure what testing method they followed.

 

[sunchaser]

Normally a "bad' engine is a show stopper. At a minimum, modify your offer to account for an engine rebuild - parts and labor. You may want to read the boatdiesel.com archives for 6 -8-12-16 V92s. You will find hundreds of discussions on these engines.

 

[Dswizzler]

Adjusted the price, made an offer, and after walking away twice, they accepted the offer and on November 15th we became the proud owners for a 4 page 58 item survey fix it list, oh yea and a 1988 58Ft Vantare. It is ton of space space and a hell of a boat, but we plan to move aboard with 6-8 months, so all is good.

Appears that the dis-coloration on one of the engines, was simplely that the heads had been replaced and not painted. The oil issue was plain neglect, which really seems to be 90% of the problems we are finding. The boat was just abused as a party house on the water for a few years. Original owners did things right, with labels on things and spare equipment and ran the boat up and down the west coast. the next owner pretty much saty at the dock until he lost the boat to the bank.

So now I am working on oil changes, replacing battery and inverter cables. Swapping out wielding cables for Anchor Marine Battery Cable, replacing the bildge pumps and in general just cleaning up things. Part of the reason the sea trail went so poorly was the 4 bladed props were bent and covered with clams and mussels, along with the rest of the bottom and the fuel filters were dirty. So new props, clean bottom, rebuilt fuel filters and new fuel injectors should go a long way to improving the ride.

I must say spending weekend on a sail boat dock with 15-20 amps is a challenge. I am tripping the circuit breaker about 5 times a days. Last weekend I ran the genset about 8 hours just to run everything and heat the boat up. That worked out fine. These heaters need 50amp 220 power, so I'll be off this dock at the end of the year as I get things fixed. But the long repair road as started and my wife could not be happier, which makes me a lucky man.

So the story continues, looking forward to the day we move aboard, then the day we punch out to go cruising full time..another 4-5 years, but I have alot to learn about this boat between the maintenance and the pure handling of this boat but I am* looking forward to every minute of it

Dswizzler

 

[RT Firefly]

Hiya,
** Now what?* Work your butts off, learn, laugh and go to bed tired but happy...enjoy!

 

[Carey]

Dswizzler wrote:


<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="left" style="width:100%;height:100%;"><tbody><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" align="left">Took the plunge and put an offer in on the 58 Vantare.The offer was accepted and now looking to schedule the surveys. I was able to run the engines and generators and took oil samples. The sample* came back showing high level of iron which could be just from lack of use and a rust build up. But one engine (these are DD 6v92T with 1800 hours ) had sodium at higher then expected levels, which could be a coolant leak. Test indicated* Glycol at 1000 ppm and recommended oil be changed and repairs made to correct.

Not sure if these are red flags to run away or just what. All of the yard folks I've talked to say it could be minor ....or major won't know till you opened it up. Considering that bill could run $35,000-40,000 for a complete rebuilt, that is a huge bet. Considering this repo and sold as is where is, a great price seems to be a relative term. Any suggestions on how to trouble shoot the problem ? I've heard you and pressure check the coolant system. But if it leaks...I forgot what that was suppose to tell me.

This is my first walk into the diesel world, so I'm drinking from the fire hose right now. Figured I'd hold off on the hull survey till I get a better handle on the engines. Adding to my concern is if the boat was neglected and one engine has a problem ...not sure how far behind the other engine might be. Any suggestions ? Running away and trying another boat is still an option, but the rest of the boat seems very manageable.

Thanks in advance,

Dswizzler </td></tr></tbody></table>

If it was me, I would rely only on the opinion of a really good marine diesel mechanic. Spend a dime to save a dollar. As knowledgeable as this gang is, you are talking too much money here to rely on us. Seek professional help!

*

 

[bobofthenorth]

Don Fairchild has forgotten more about 2-stroke Detroits than most of us will ever know.* He's in Bakersfield.* Call him at eight eight eight 473 three 626 and tell him Bob Evans sent you.

 

[FF]

"but the heads were changed out. No idea why. "

Usually its an overeheat, which can effect the sealing of the cylinder liners.

Might be time for 2 inframes , about $1000 in parts plus skilled (not usually an owner job) labor guess $4000 per engine.

Could be just a crappy head job , R&R to replace gasket is within the ability of any auto enthusiast , similar to head replacement on a car , just heavier stuff.

Running the rack , the difficult part is well explained in many DD books.