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Old 05-28-2014, 07:07 AM   #1
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Too much roll

Gulfstar 36. This boat doesn't have a mast where I could possiblly rig up a steadying sail. Has anyone added a mast to their trawler? If so, where would the best location be on the 36? thru the deck into the aft cabin down to the keel? or how? What other options are there for slowing down the roll on these boats? Got twin diesels and not a lot of space in the engine room.
Thanks for any suggestions or insight
Bill
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:45 AM   #2
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My mast is located on the deck of the flying bridge. 4 stays support it fore and aft. It is hinged at the deck, and can be lowered easily by releasing the forward stays. Having the stay sail up helps some with the rolling, but in anything above 3 foot seas, it's not much fun.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:55 AM   #3
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roll

Thanks BW. I might try adding a mast to carry a staysail. I read thru most of the previous threads regarding options to dampen roll. Looks like it depends on the specific boat design and your pocket book. I'm wondering if anyone out there with a Gulfstar 36 has found what they consider a satisfactory and least expensive way to address this problem.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:02 AM   #4
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My mast is located on the deck of the flying bridge. 4 stays support it fore and aft. It is hinged at the deck, and can be lowered easily by releasing the forward stays. Having the stay sail up helps some with the rolling, but in anything above 3 foot seas, it's not much fun.
Do have your mast mounted over a strong bulkhead below? there is just a passage way centered below my flying bridge in the aft cabin. I would think I would have to add a vertical support post from the keel up to the cabin deck.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:22 AM   #5
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Carring a sail does very little as most are far to snall to do much.

If you are willing to put a pole in the air , using it as the CL mast for a set of flopper stoppers would actually cut the roll down.

These can work on all points of sail, not just with the wind abeam.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:23 AM   #6
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My mast is not supported from below. I believe the decking at the end of the fly bridge is cored with plywood, and that is the support for the mast. I haven't noticed any deforming of the bridge deck. I don't think the stresses involved would warrant having a keel-stepped mast. It wouldn't hurt to extend a support to the top of the aft cabin. The only thing I would change is that to lower the mast I have to detach the boom first to get the sail out of the way. But if the mast needs lowered, it's most likely that we're in a canal system, and won't need the stay sail anyway. We also carry a wooden crutch to support the mast when it is down.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:50 AM   #7
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Thanks Bilgewater and FF. I like the idea of the flopper stoppers since I will be adding a mast in the first place. I was thinking about a loose footed boom, but that won't work for hauling out the dinghy. I think I would definetely have to add a support post below the mast to the keel to handle the load. I'll have to research the "flopper stoppers" and how to make or buy them.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:07 AM   #8
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Boats tend to roll. The question is how much roll. If the roll period is between 4 to 8 seconds that is a recommended comfortable roll. A mast and sail might help? You might look at also adding ballast or increasing the hard chime. If just a mast for a sail it should be above a bulk head and also re enforce the mast foot area. The Eagle mast foot is solid teak across for support and there is a post in the galley that is support by the cabinet, so the mast might not have to go all the way to the keel. It seem most of the strength is on the stays to hold the mast/sail vertical not down ward. Also a steady sails does not have much area.

We have a steady sail but found it had little effect, so the best use is at anchor to use as a vane to reduce the swing. So you might want to install the mast toward the stern so if it does not effect the roll, it can be used as a vane.

The Eagle is going to be pulled this July and we are going to added twin keels mainly to prevent the Eagle from rolling over if grounded, and secondly to reduce the roll a bit. Most full displacement have a rounded and soft chine so they tend to roll on their side when grounded and when the tide comes back in fills with water.

Its recomend that passive means of stability before active. Para vanes are active, and I will not instasll them until needed. I had a new stong mast made and installed, increassed the the stay mounting area I have the poles, chian plates and fish, but for our protect water crusing would proable not be used. Also the fish put a a lot a strain on the mast and stays. So the mast would have to be several time stonger than for a steading sail.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:18 AM   #9
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There was a really good thread on installing stabilizing birds by one OP, I think it was Dauntless, maybe someone else know the thread and can provide the link, I liked how he did it and give very clear results.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:20 AM   #10
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Thanks Phil Fil, I thought about added ballast also. I'm going to talk to a local surveyor also and get his opinion based on what he knows about this particular boat. Then I guess I'll just sit down on the dock and make some decisions. I've always been a sailboat person so heeling doesn't bother me. This is my first power boat. And this rolling back and forth beats me to death. By the way, I've seen pictures of boats with a "flopper stopper" out on one side only. Is that what to do at anchor?
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:17 PM   #11
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Thanks Phil Fil, I thought about added ballast also. I'm going to talk to a local surveyor also and get his opinion based on what he knows about this particular boat. Then I guess I'll just sit down on the dock and make some decisions. I've always been a sailboat person so heeling doesn't bother me. This is my first power boat. And this rolling back and forth beats me to death. By the way, I've seen pictures of boats with a "flopper stopper" out on one side only. Is that what to do at anchor?
At anchor you could do that with a mast/boom with a rock/roll stabilizer for anchoring only. We had a rolley dock/marina so I hung plastic cone shapped rocker stoppers from the boat. They cost 15 bucks/each and hang 6 per side which really reduced the roll and they stack/stored easily. As I mentioned before most power boats tend to roll and that is just the nature of them.
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:45 PM   #12
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These are lightweight, shallow-draft, beamy boats that suffer from "too much" stability. I know, you can never have too much stability. But the quick motion does beat you up. You want to slow the rolling down and that can be done in a number of ways. Adding ballast down low will increase stability even more and produce a quicker rolling motion.

A mast and sail will slow the rolling a bit, because it raises the center of gravity. The sail damps rolling because you are trying to move a "fence" through the air. But the righting force of the boat will overcome that small sail easily. The sail will slow rolling a lot if the wind is strong and blowing directly abeam, but this is a rare condition for most cruisers. Coastwise cruisers tend to meet head or tailwinds, when the sail does nothing.

I would call paravanes passive stabilizers because they require no direct power, though they do add drag and thus require added HP and fuel to cruise at a given speed. Active fins (Hydraulic), gyroscopic stabilizers, and other moving flaps or weights are definitely not passive. The passive units I would suggest include bilge keels, batwings, daggerboards, sails, and paravanes. I like paravanes because they work really well, they are relatively simple (no electro-mechanical stuff), and you can eliminate the added drag when you want. The downside is they are some work to handle. But for the Gulfstar 36 they can be really small and light and still make a big difference.
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:37 PM   #13
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These are lightweight, shallow-draft, beamy boats that suffer from "too much" stability. I know, you can never have too much stability. But the quick motion does beat you up. You want to slow the rolling down and that can be done in a number of ways. Adding ballast down low will increase stability even more and produce a quicker rolling motion.

A mast and sail will slow the rolling a bit, because it raises the center of gravity. The sail damps rolling because you are trying to move a "fence" through the air. But the righting force of the boat will overcome that small sail easily. The sail will slow rolling a lot if the wind is strong and blowing directly abeam, but this is a rare condition for most cruisers. Coastwise cruisers tend to meet head or tailwinds, when the sail does nothing.

I would call paravanes passive stabilizers because they require no direct power, though they do add drag and thus require added HP and fuel to cruise at a given speed. Active fins (Hydraulic), gyroscopic stabilizers, and other moving flaps or weights are definitely not passive. The passive units I would suggest include bilge keels, batwings, daggerboards, sails, and paravanes. I like paravanes because they work really well, they are relatively simple (no electro-mechanical stuff), and you can eliminate the added drag when you want. The downside is they are some work to handle. But for the Gulfstar 36 they can be really small and light and still make a big difference.
Thanks Tad,
I am in agreement with the paravane stabilizers, and that is the way I want to go, I hope. Is there a company that makes the whole rig (Poles, lines, cleats ,connection plates to hull. a choice of "fish", the whole nine yards?) or does one have to piece all this together to fit the different situations on each individual boat. I would personally have to start with just getting a mast up, unless there were some way to rig it off the fly bridge. I would suppose that there is a formula of some type to tell you what minimum length pole to use for your particular boats length or beam? That's why I mentioned running it off the fly bridge, but the angle of the stay wouldn't be very much if you had to have a long pole.
I really appreciate all this input from all of you.
Bill
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:48 PM   #14
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Cheaper to put a gyro stabilzer on board than the steadying sail. Also, the twin keels really are a better choice than the sail.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:21 PM   #15
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Each stabilization system has plusses and minuses...no single one is "better"...just better for certain applications, boats, cruising areas, pocketbook...etc..etc...
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:07 PM   #16
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Cheaper to put a gyro stabilzer on board than the steadying sail
??? Gyros must have fallen greatly in price recently.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:00 AM   #17
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Hi Bill,
If you have space in the bilge, I recommend to use a flexible water tank.
I have one of 200 liters, below the waterline and engines and improvesthe roll plus the fact of having a water reservoir
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Old 05-29-2014, 11:55 AM   #18
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I have paravanes and a hard chine. I have never deployed the paravanes but so far I don't have enough experience on this boat to know if they are essential. When I bought the boat they had been lying in the po's garden for some years. I reinstalled them but I still don't know if they are necessary. I have noticed many of the fish boats here also have roll chocks. The roll chocks are passive and are always working and you can deploy the paravanes if you feel the need.
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Old 05-29-2014, 12:04 PM   #19
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Many of the fish stabilizers are trial and error. They are common on many of the older commercial trawlers, which you can basically copy. The most difficult is making sure the mast, poles and chain plates are strong/secure enough and how and where to fasten. I figure to install is 3 to 5 grand if you are starting with out a strong enough mast. If you are really interested send me your email address and I well email you some information.

How full you keep the tanks can effect the stability. I figure diesel/gas/water weighs an average of 7 lbs/gallon. The Eagle feels and ride different with the tanks full or empty. 1000+ of diesel and 400 gallons of water is 9,800 lbs down below or at the water line. so you might want to what see effect the tanks make. At least you should get some idea feel if the center of gravity needs to be lower or higher. But roll period should tell you a lot.

I count para vanes as active as you have to physical active/deploy them. Also they do not change the stability of the boat, but make the ride better/easier. Where as passive they do not to be activated deployed and they tend to change the stability of the boat. But that is another discussion.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:22 PM   #20
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...I count para vanes as active as you have to physical active/deploy them. Also they do not change the stability of the boat, but make the ride better/easier. Where as passive they do not to be activated deployed and they tend to change the stability of the boat. But that is another discussion.


Read Voyaging Under Power by Robert Beebe particularly Chapter 6, Stabilizing Against Rolling. The chapter gets into a good discussion on passive devices such as paravanes, bilge keels, steading sails and few others and talks about active devices which include "activated fins'. The chapter also has the stress analysis for paravanes of a 36' trawler yacht.
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