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Old 05-29-2014, 03:18 PM   #21
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Recently discussed:
Rolling chocks ve Stabilizers
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:24 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by kawilt View Post
Thanks Tad,
I am in agreement with the paravane stabilizers, and that is the way I want to go, I hope. Is there a company that makes the whole rig (Poles, lines, cleats ,connection plates to hull. a choice of "fish", the whole nine yards?) or does one have to piece all this together to fit the different situations on each individual boat. I would personally have to start with just getting a mast up, unless there were some way to rig it off the fly bridge. I would suppose that there is a formula of some type to tell you what minimum length pole to use for your particular boats length or beam? That's why I mentioned running it off the fly bridge, but the angle of the stay wouldn't be very much if you had to have a long pole.
I really appreciate all this input from all of you.
Bill
This may be of interest...
Riggers, Fabricators and the Rig

AFAIK everyone builds their own system because every installation is different with each owner having different concerns. A solidly reinforced mast step with a well stayed mast is important as the mast is the pry bar you are pulling on to right the ship. Then well built pole brackets, hopefully over a bulkhead or internal stiffener. And strong stay points for the poles forward and aft, port and starboard.

Kolstrand in Seattle make and sell steel paravanes, but they are heavy and bang up your boat unless you are careful. "Home" made plywood ones are easier on the back and the paint. Nikka Fishing & Marine, a commercial fishing supplier in Steveston (Richmond BC) sell the steel arms that are the basis of plywood paravanes.

Pole length is pretty arbitrary, in this part of the world the beam plus some is usual. Some folks favor really short poles. The longer the pole, the longer it's lever arm and the more force produced. Or longer poles allow smaller "fish", which are easier to handle. We use 20 ft poles on 50' boats, and 14-16' poles (3" sch 40 alu. pipe) on 40' boats with 12' beam. My little 22' Timbercoast troller uses 10' poles of 2" alu. pipe, her beam is 7'4".
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:33 PM   #23
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Reminds me. I need to transfer fuel from the port/starboard tanks down to the lower port/starboard tanks.

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Old 05-29-2014, 07:45 PM   #24
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I'll stay put if the water is too rough. I'm new to owning a 36' Gulfstar but I do intend to add ballast by installing a large house battery system as well as a large holding tank and possibly offsetting the holding tanks weight with a 2nd freshwater tank.
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Old 05-30-2014, 06:43 AM   #25
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If all that is required is a slower period of roll install a mast and haul the biggest anchor up to its top.

For most folks the roll distance is not the problem it is the check, the roll reversal that caused discomfort.

If the direction change is slow the boat is considered sea kindly.
If the boat snaps back from too much beam or too hard chines , it becomes a Vomitorium.

The usual cure for the flat bottom hard chine boat is to simply climb up on the plane and exchange leaping from wave to wave for rolling.

It works in modest seas , but the fuel bill can get outrageous.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:12 AM   #26
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I think the original post was talking about a Gulfstar 36 they are not a flat bottom boat. They are a full displacement trawler so there never will be enough power to climb up on plane.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:54 AM   #27
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Roll on the Gulfstar 36

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Originally Posted by Billylll View Post
I think the original post was talking about a Gulfstar 36 they are not a flat bottom boat. They are a full displacement trawler so there never will be enough power to climb up on plane.
Bill

Bill,
I think I read somewhere in these forums that adding more ballast may not make that much of a difference on this hull shape.. Did you find contrary information about this? The flume tanks look interesting, simple and inexpensive, but I would have no idea as to the volume of water required for these boats or where something like this could be installed on the Gulfstar 36. I know that the boat is always going to roll somewhat , but do you know of anyone that has added ballast and is satisfied with the results either in the 36 or a similar length and shaped hull? also is there someone who has experienced the difference after adding fin keel stabilizers? It seems that the paravanes are the most efficient and used method, but in my case I would have to start from scratch since I don't have a mast. But as Tad Roberts mentioned " they could be really small and light" for the Gulfstar 36.
Thanks All,
Bill
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:56 PM   #28
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I'm simply adding systems the boat already needs, a house battery bank, a holding tank and additional fresh water. If that helps it's stability great, if not I still need the additions for my style cruising.
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Old 06-01-2014, 01:30 PM   #29
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OK. Didn't realize that. I have found a very interesting article on stabilizers and it has a cross section drawing of the boat and the paravane mast, arm and rigging with all the loads so you can determine the size and layout for whatever boat your working with. Iv'e been trying to download this and post it, but my computer navigational skills suck. I'll try again later when my blood pressure drops. Perhaps everybody has already seen this, but I didn't see any reference to the article in my search of past posts.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:27 PM   #30
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The Gulfstar is going to roll no matter what. I would like to have bilge keels to dampen it, but haven't been able to determine if it would be practical or not. The steadying sail helps some, but she still rolls. If the fore cast is for more than 2-4 foot seas, we stay home. If we get caught in it, we slow down and do the best we can. We have "tacked" like a sailboat to keep the seas off the beam for a given course. Flopper stoppers would most likely be the best roll-reducing system, but it would take some serious engineering to do it properly. My concern is how to lower the mast for canal cruising with all the f/s gear installed.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:32 PM   #31
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The Gulfstar is going to roll no matter what.
Yup. Pretty much the bottom line (pun intended).
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:13 PM   #32
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The Gulfstar is going to roll no matter what. I would like to have bilge keels to dampen it, but haven't been able to determine if it would be practical or not. The steadying sail helps some, but she still rolls. If the fore cast is for more than 2-4 foot seas, we stay home. If we get caught in it, we slow down and do the best we can. We have "tacked" like a sailboat to keep the seas off the beam for a given course. Flopper stoppers would most likely be the best roll-reducing system, but it would take some serious engineering to do it properly. My concern is how to lower the mast for canal cruising with all the f/s gear installed.
Yea, it's going to roll, all the trawlers are going to roll to different degrees, and if we want to dampen it something has to be added. Do you think bilge keels on the Gulfstar would be enough to feel a significant difference? what kind of keels or fins are you thinking of? those placed at about the 45 degree angle each side of the keel? What would you consider the best length and depth/width of these? I've seen some that were only a few feet long, about 18" deep and airefoil shaped. And others that were flat like a board, about 12 or 16 inches deep and ran 10 feet or more. I can see your concern about canal cruising if you set up paravane rigs, getting that mess up and down would be major headach. I'm just trying to find out if someone has tried bilge keels/fins, how they were sized, and where they were placed. And of course, was it worth it. I wouldn't want to haul out to have keels installed and discover that they don't work, then have to have the extra expense of installing a mast with a post to the bildge and the Paravane gear.
For me also right now, it's not all about expense, but a lot about time.
Thanks
Bill
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:23 PM   #33
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In general order of effectiveness.

1) Bilge keels - will reduce rolling 10-20%
2) Steadying sail - will reduce rolling 20-30%, but only with stiff wind from the right direction.
3) Passive tanks (Flume, Fram, U, etc) - will reduce rolling 40-60%
4)Paravanes - will reduce rolling 50-70%
5) Active Fins - will reduce rolling 60-90%
6) Gyro stabilizer - will reduce rolling 60-90%
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:29 PM   #34
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One way to deal with the paravane poles and folding the rig down is to mount the poles on a universal type base. This allows them to pivot both up and down athwartships, and also fore and aft. Thus they can be pivoted to rest parallel with the rail along the cap or deck, or even along the cabintop.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:38 PM   #35
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Here's what Beebe says about bilge keels: "It works out that bilge keels, while effective on large ships, do not suppress roll very much on small craft. Their bilge keels may be expected to suppress roll about five percent or thereabouts."
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:39 PM   #36
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It all adds weight and/or drag and costs money,

My Willy ((Willard) rolls plenty and for a 30' boat has plenty of ballast at 4000lbs. And it's much stiffer than a round bottom boat. A good balance it seems. Several times I really wished we had some form of stabilizers but those times were few and only a very small part of the day. When the rolling gets pretty bad I frequently stand w my feet fairly close together w my right hand lightly on the helm. That way the boat rolls ... Not me. A mindset of "the boat's rolling, not me" and "let'r roll. But on several occasions it got so bad I was spread eagle gripping the helm w two white knuckle hands. But on reflection those times were almost always of short duration.

But the best inexpensive way to roll far less is to steer a course that forces the boat to roll at a rate that the waves frequency is such that when the boat tries to roll to port a wave at that moment arrives at the port beam and arrests the roll before it begins. Often it's just a few degrees course change to bring this about. You can practice this technique on passing wakes.

Seamanship costs no drag, weight or money.
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Old 06-01-2014, 04:25 PM   #37
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A lot is known about the paravanes, even how to determine what size for your boat. It may be worth it to have a local marine engineer come by the boat and see if it's possible to install a flume tank on this boat, but I have my doubts about the strength of the pilot house support framing on a lot of these trawlers. That's a lot of weight sloshing around up there.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:01 PM   #38
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My hull although shorter in length is similar to the Gulfstar. I have bilge keels, and although they may help a little, the rolling is still terrible in a 3+ foot beam sea. When I raise the sails, I would estimate the rolling is decreased by about 75%.

I have a 200 square foot gaff rigged mainsail and a 100 sq. ft jib. The boat is only half the displacement of a GS36. I would expect Gulfstar 36 to need a minimum of 500 sq ft of sail area to be effective for minimizing the roll. That requires a substantial mast and rigging. (and cost). I would suggest paravanes might get you equal or better results for less cost.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:58 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad Roberts View Post

Pole length is pretty arbitrary, in this part of the world the beam plus some is usual. Some folks favor really short poles. The longer the pole, the longer it's lever arm and the more force produced. Or longer poles allow smaller "fish", which are easier to handle. We use 20 ft poles on 50' boats, and 14-16' poles (3" sch 40 alu. pipe) on 40' boats with 12' beam. My little 22' Timbercoast troller uses 10' poles of 2" alu. pipe, her beam is 7'4".
Thanks Tad,

Hadnt seen that before, but it's helpful.
A few thoughts about this.
I am still tweaking my system. I love it, but it can always be better

TO that end, I am going to get two more birds (fish) and actually go one size smaller (I have the medium size now, Larry on hobo has the large size).
I sill see how they work (my guess is that they will be as effective with slightly less drag).

The fish are made my Stano Enterprises, one guy in his garage, I like their design, with wood wings to reduce damage when it hits something as I retrieve it and it's cost, only $125. My fabricatore in miami said he could make that in Al for $400.

You can find these fish at Englung Marine or Murray Pacific Supply.

Lastly, I was told my another KK42 owner that stabilizing sails were not worth the effort.

Also, for the first time in over 7000 nm, I had my tanks totally filled, 720 gallons, coming north from Norfolk to Rhode island. The boat is sitting lower in the water by her stern, and while she seemed a bit more slower in her rolling, it certainly wasn't significant compared to relatively empty tanks. I travelled a lot with just 50 to 100 gallons of fuel.

So the paravanes remain a no brainer for open ocean travel as they are cost effective and don't break down unless you do too many shenanigans.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:22 AM   #40
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...I am going to get two more birds (fish) and actually go one size smaller (I have the medium size now, Larry on hobo has the large size).
I sill see how they work (my guess is that they will be as effective with slightly less drag).
I'm not sure if you go smaller they will be just as affective. Less drag means less roll stabilization. Everything comes at a price?

The smaller fish, as I have been told, when we were in AK and the PNW, were for boats up to about 30-35 feet.

Have you played around with the different speed settings on the fish? If that doesn't work you can add a tab in the front which will decrease the drag even more. Just a thought.
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