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01-02-2019, 03:28 PM
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#1
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Guru
City: Houma, Louisiana
Vessel Name: M/V LUNASEA
Vessel Model: 45ft Bluewater Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 529
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Was Told I Need Bigger Rudders
On my 45 ft Bluewater Coastal Cruiser I was told that I have high speed rudders and that's why it is hard to dock or control at low speed. Is there a way to add on to the rudders to get a larger surface or due I have to buy new rudders.
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01-02-2019, 03:32 PM
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#2
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Guru
City: Z
Vessel Model: tbd
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartracer
On my 45 ft Bluewater Coastal Cruiser I was told that I have high speed rudders and that's why it is hard to dock or control at low speed. Is there a way to add on to the rudders to get a larger surface or due I have to buy new rudders.
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Huh? Twin screw?
I rarely touch the steering wheel when I am docking... I center the rudders and work the throttles...
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01-02-2019, 03:43 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: South Florida
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,088
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Who told you that?
And like Mystery said, most vessels with high speed rudders seldom touch the wheel at slow/docking speeds, that's what the twin engines are for.
Depending on what your rudders are made of, you may be able to add to them. You could have new larger rudders fabricated or you could install articulated rudders.
[QUOTE=kartracer;727963]I was told that I have high speed rudders and that's why it is hard to dock or control at low speed. QUOTE]
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01-02-2019, 04:28 PM
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#4
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,187
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There are some threads about adding on to a rudder to make them more responsive. Although if you have twins using the rudders at slow speeds isn’t that necessary.
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01-02-2019, 04:44 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,148
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One, you really shouldn't need them...
Two, if you decide you do, like someone said in another thread....there is tons of used parts from recent hurricanes available. Just a lot of work to locate a set.
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01-02-2019, 05:14 PM
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#6
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Guru
City: Cary, NC
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,841
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We have what you would call high speed rudders too. I call them my ping pong paddles. And yea, low speed maneuverability is cruddy when you use rudders... and you can a little bit. Still, bigger rudders will cost you a great deal of speed due to drag. I don’t think it would in any way be an easy or cheap job. It might be cheaper to add a thruster if you don’t have one. You would need new tillers and stuffing boxes and I would bet custom fabricated rudders. Moreover, will your steering be able to push the greater mass and against the pressure more water will create? I know this post is more questions than answers, but TBH, you should be able to get used to handling her as time goes by (assuming this boat is new to you).
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
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01-02-2019, 05:47 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
City: MN and FL
Vessel Name: Serendipitous
Vessel Model: Mainship 390, Bayliner 3258, Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartracer
On my 45 ft Bluewater Coastal Cruiser I was told that I have high speed rudders and that's why it is hard to dock or control at low speed. Is there a way to add on to the rudders to get a larger surface or due I have to buy new rudders.
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In general, rudders on semi-displacement or planing hull boats are of little use at slow speeds, and are completely useless in reverse. The small size of the rudders is more about the draft of these vessels than about 'high-speed'.
With twin engines, you want to center the rudders and use the sticks.
I have seen some boats 'upgraded' with a (very expensive) articulated rudder, but these are generally single engine boats.
Find an experienced friend (or hire a captain) to show you how to steer and manuver with the sticks...
__________________
RiverGuy~~
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01-02-2019, 06:46 PM
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#8
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Guru
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartracer
On my 45 ft Bluewater Coastal Cruiser I was told that I have high speed rudders and that's why it is hard to dock or control at low speed. Is there a way to add on to the rudders to get a larger surface or due I have to buy new rudders.
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I had run a twin with fairly small rudders for years. It docked wonderfully. IMO, if running at any speed with ONE engine and you can't go straight ahead; the rudders are too small.
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01-02-2019, 06:53 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
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I had the rudder enlarged on my single engined previous boat and it made a huge difference to turns, they used the old rudder base and built on it.
But with twins, you have the turning effects the props create, in addition to fwd/aft propulsion. For close quarters work requiring concentration,I simplify by centering the rudders, lowering rpms to near idle, leave the rudders and throttles alone as much as possible, and go in and out of gear as required. Some instruction might speed the learning process and help put together a series of things you probably already know.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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01-02-2019, 07:33 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: New Orleans
Vessel Name: Scot Free
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 53' Efficient
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 754
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Well, I hate to throw a bucket of cold water on those who say you don’t need rudders to dock a twin screw boat but I would disagree. Use of rudders while docking greatly enhances the bag of tricks at hand for variable conditions including high current, breezy days and tight spaces. You will need rudders to walk a boat sideways into a berth. If you don’t know how to do this, have someone show you how, it will certainly enhance your boat handling skills. Although I have a bow thruster, I seldom find use for it as I use my rudders in conjunction with engines to get into tight spots. Oh and btw I consider my rather small rudders to be a detriment and would rather have larger but they work well enough for me to single hand my 53’, 62,000lb boat into most berths.
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01-02-2019, 07:52 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
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I have used helm turning 90 degrees to line up and back into the berth but, there is a risk at a busy time of forgetting to straighten the rudders. Though one time I left the helm over it helped angle the boat into the berth. Rules like "not touching the helm" are made to be broken.
Walking the boat sideways using helm has been discussed before but I recall many contributors could not make it work on their boat.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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01-02-2019, 08:43 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
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A little throttle burst will overcome lack of rudder size if you need it.
__________________
George
"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
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01-02-2019, 09:28 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: LaConner
Vessel Model: 34' CHB
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGillicuddy
Well, I hate to throw a bucket of cold water on those who say you don’t need rudders to dock a twin screw boat but I would disagree. Use of rudders while docking greatly enhances the bag of tricks at hand for variable conditions including high current, breezy days and tight spaces. You will need rudders to walk a boat sideways into a berth. If you don’t know how to do this, have someone show you how, it will certainly enhance your boat handling skills. Although I have a bow thruster, I seldom find use for it as I use my rudders in conjunction with engines to get into tight spots. Oh and btw I consider my rather small rudders to be a detriment and would rather have larger but they work well enough for me to single hand my 53’, 62,000lb boat into most berths.
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Gotta agree with this. To say that one should ignore his steering is overstating it by lots. Sure one can do a lot with two props, but the rudders have their uses as well as stated above. Don't think I would go to the trouble and expense of enlarging or replacing my smallish rudders if I had two props though. Practice! My CHB is single with one rudder and its factory size which is smallish, but we manage with the help of the bow thruster, usually.
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01-03-2019, 12:22 AM
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#14
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Guru
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGillicuddy
Well, I hate to throw a bucket of cold water on those who say you don’t need rudders to dock a twin screw boat but I would disagree. Use of rudders while docking greatly enhances the bag of tricks at hand for variable conditions including high current, breezy days and tight spaces. You will need rudders to walk a boat sideways into a berth. If you don’t know how to do this, have someone show you how, it will certainly enhance your boat handling skills. Although I have a bow thruster, I seldom find use for it as I use my rudders in conjunction with engines to get into tight spots. Oh and btw I consider my rather small rudders to be a detriment and would rather have larger but they work well enough for me to single hand my 53’, 62,000lb boat into most berths.
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Ditto. Except I don't use thrusters.
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01-03-2019, 05:42 AM
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#15
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,148
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As they say, all boats are compromises. Change the rudders and what other handling characteristics will change?
I have run across a few that the rudders were all but useless at low speeds....usually boats with props in tunnels or pockets.
But the vast majority of twins, even with smallish rudders handled fine as twins, with or without using the factory designed/installed rudder.
For cruising, there are lots of singles without thrusters that manage,. A twin that is less manueverable is hard to imagine....unless single engine.
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01-03-2019, 06:40 AM
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#16
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Guru
City: Houma, Louisiana
Vessel Name: M/V LUNASEA
Vessel Model: 45ft Bluewater Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 529
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Maybe I need docking lessons rather than bigger rudders
Thanks all for the money saving tips !!!!!!!
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01-03-2019, 06:46 AM
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#17
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,186
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I too use my rudders and twin engines. With bursts of power and use of forward and reverse (bow thruster too) the vessel can be walked sideways. We are blessed with big rudders which helps even more.
Rudder use and alternating engines is quite similar to how IPS and Zeus work, absent computer help.
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01-04-2019, 07:30 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
City: MN and FL
Vessel Name: Serendipitous
Vessel Model: Mainship 390, Bayliner 3258, Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc
A little throttle burst will overcome lack of rudder size if you need it.
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Yes, but only in fwd gear.
__________________
RiverGuy~~
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01-04-2019, 09:11 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: SchoolHouse Branch
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 551
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Might enjoy reading about tow boats and flanking rudders or flanking doors.
Prop wash, prop walk, etc. Prop wash on rudders on aircraft is a topic also.
Those tows pushing a mile of barges don't have thrusters and they can walk sideways.
"Was told I need bigger rudders" This is a humorous title for a thread. Gives rise to a bunch of jokes and I can't quite put any together.
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01-04-2019, 09:36 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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kartracer or anyone else looking to modify your rudder/s should very carefully consider the structural ramifications of doing so.
I changed the steering attach point on the horn where it attached to the rudder shaft to increase the swing to 45 degrees. The boat turns much much better but my whole rudder system is very heavily built. Even steers backwards w a little speed (2-2.5 knots) but I need to hold on to the helm very tightly to insure the rudder dosn’t slam over against the steering cylinder (no stops).
Rudders over 35 degrees should only be for slow boats. Slower than SD.
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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