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Old 10-28-2012, 09:51 PM   #41
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The owner of a marina I worked at in college HATED sail boaters. He would say: "The wind's free; they think everything else should be"
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Heard that a lot back in the 70's and 80's, not so much anymore.

Back in the day, the "free Spirit" crowd who frequently lived on their little floating paradise would take advantage of the marinas unguarded services, to the anger of the harbor master and paying tenants.

Unfortunately, the actions of a few jaded the welcome for the rest. They used to say, "Sail boaters slide in after dark and slip out before dawn." They would often anchor in the bay adjacent to the marina, waiting until the port office closed, tie up in any empty slip, use the power, and port facilities, slip out early in the morning without paying.

The night security officers check every boat in the marina each night against the tenant log now.

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Old 10-28-2012, 11:01 PM   #42
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... They used to say, "Sail boaters slide in after dark and slip out before dawn." They would often anchor in the bay adjacent to the marina, waiting until the port office closed, tie up in any empty slip, use the power, and port facilities, slip out early in the morning without paying.
The first time moored at Ayala Cove (Angel Island, California) a couple months ago, noticed two sailboats arriving late in the afternoon and leaving early morning. seemingly without paying the $30 per night mooring fee.

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Old 10-29-2012, 06:19 AM   #43
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Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm.

A client decides to buy a boat, he come to a brokerage, which quite often is part of a management firm, and finds a broker to assist in the search. The broker finds a boat, introduces the prospective purchaser and guides the process to its conclusion. If the boat is not under the broker's central agency, his fee is taken from the brokerage fee that is part of any sale which includes a broker. The seller doesn't pay more, the buyer doesn't pay more, the brokers share the fee and if they resent sharing they don't understand their own business. They will get it back next time they take a buyer to another broker. No one brokerage has all the boats.

Does anyone here expect the buyer's advisor to work for free? Just because the buyer doesn't directly pay the commission doesn't mean the work that went into the matchmaking process didn't cost anything ... it was very time and money consuming, all from the buyer's broker's pocket.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:11 AM   #44
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That kind of "buyers broker" sounds hopelessly conflicted.
That was always my concern.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:28 AM   #45
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Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm..........
I understand how it works. I think the thought is that since the buyer's broker is working on commision, he or she may steer the buyer to a more expensive boat or perhaps just "any" boat in order to get a commision or a bigger commision.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:32 AM   #46
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The first time moored at Ayala Cove (Angel Island, California) a couple months ago, noticed two sailboats arriving late in the afternoon and leaving early morning. seemingly without paying the $30 per night mooring fee.

Would they have been allowed to anchor in the cove without paying a fee? Does the fee include privileges such as restrooms, showers, trash dumping?

Some local governments have placed mooring balls in former anchorages and outlawed anchoring, presumably to collect revenue from those who formerly were able to anchor in the area for free. That seems unfair. It's not like charging for parking on a street where they own the street. They don't "own" the water.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #47
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...from another marina manager..."they sail in with one five dollar bill and one pair of underwear and never change either one".

Theft of services is commonplace, especially when they travel in packs. One boat rents a slip to get door lock codes to showers/restrooms, three anchor out. When the sun goes down the fleet of dinks arrives. Next morning the facilities are trashed. The racers in the vaunted Chicago-Mackinaw race are some of the worst offenders. They rent one slip and multiple boats slide in and out through the night. Dump a week of garbage, take on water, mess up the facilities. Loaner power cords are stolen. It's more than a few who have established the reputation for cheapness. And they're proud of it...the salty pirate schtick. Many of them are teaching your kids.

They routinely tell of anchoring for weeks at a stretch in the North Channel or Georgian Bay on Lake Huron.....never visiting a marina. They'll complain of diesel smoke from power boats in the anchorages, but no mention that they obvious dump weeks of sewage in those pristine waters.

Marinas are less vocal about the problem in recent years because sailboats make up the majority of boats that are moving these days...so they have to be nice to the former bad actors (who are still bad actors).
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #48
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I understand how it works. I think the thought is that since the buyer's broker is working on commision, he or she may steer the buyer to a more expensive boat or perhaps just "any" boat in order to get a commision or a bigger commision.
The buyer tells the broker what kind of boat, what size, what price range, and the broker finds boats that fit those "desirements" and from then on it is the buyer's decision.

I don't think I have ever come across a buyer who lives and works in a vacuum where he or she isn't aware of what the market has to offer. Unless you are buying a boat on a credit card at used boat lot a broker has a great deal of interest in seeing that the buyer gets what he wants and trusts the broker enough to develop a long term scope of relationship that normally extends beyond the point of sale.

The worst outcome I have seen in this business occurred when new buyer purchased a boat without a broker in the middle.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #49
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I would prefer that brokers that insist that they be called a "Buyers Broker" work ONLY on a flat fee paid by the buyer. That way, to me, is the only way complete objectivity can be obtained.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #50
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As a former Realtor I can not begin to fathom the paranoia about a "Buyers Broker". It's not exactly a new concept or anything. As in any transaction, if you feel your representative has less than your best interest as their focus fire them and get another.

Before a fire I had letters from former clients that I represented on both sides of the same transaction(buyer and seller of the same home) stating at no time did they feel I was not representing their best interest. THAT is a situation with opportunity for a less than ethical broker, not representing only the buyer or seller.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:52 AM   #51
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As for tipping, the subject of the thread. Put me in the cheapskate camp. I tip exceptional service exceptionally well. I don't tip at the gas pump.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #52
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As a former Realtor I can not begin to fathom the paranoia about a "Buyers Broker".
As one who works with brokers and buyers of yachts, I too cannot fathom the paranoia. Does the anti buyer's broker crowd think that the seller's broker or a plastic hammer surveyor are going to work for his interests?
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:23 PM   #53
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Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm.

A client decides to buy a boat, he come to a brokerage, which quite often is part of a management firm, and finds a broker to assist in the search. The broker finds a boat, introduces the prospective purchaser and guides the process to its conclusion.

While we certainly did not buy a yacht, this is exactly the process we followed and we would never have found the boat we have today without our "buyer's broker." Like real estate, brokers often learn about boats coming onto the market before they are actually listed. This was the case with our boat. Owner wanted to unload it as he'd just bought a larger and newer GB. Told a broker in Alameda to sell the GB36, that broker called the GB dealer he had done business with in the past in Bellingham/Seattle and asked if they knew anyone who might be interested in an old GB36. A few minutes after he faxed the specs to the Seattle office, we walked in.

Our "buyer's broker" accompanied us to California to check out the boat and his experience with and knowledge of Grand Banks boats was invaluable to us in making our decision. After we decided to buy the boat, on his own he negotiated a cost-to-repair reduction in the price for the autopilot that none of us had known the boat even had until we saw it.. Later, after the boat had been trucked to Tacoma and had a number of things done to it, he accompanied me on it's two-day maiden (for us) voyage up to Bellingham which was great since other than previous charters we were unfamiliar with this kind of boat. And for all this he received what to us was a surprisingly small commission.

In fact we felt sort of bad about it so we gave him a $200 "bonus." When we next returned to the boat we found two brand new bronze "Grand Banks" boarding plates on the settee table, the ones that mount on the caprail at the boarding gate. Our boat did not have them and even back then they were very expensive to buy new. I'm sure the dealer got a substantial reduction in the cost but our broker was certainly under no obligation to supply them for us.

What did we get out of it all? A boat which while old has served us very well now for 14 years. What did he get out of it? Some customers who ultimately bought boats that came to him based on our recommendation.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:07 PM   #54
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I think the difference, in fact snd in perception, between a selling broker and a buyer's broker is pretty clear irrespective of the source of the payment-the selling broker's obligation is to the owner of a specific boat, his obligation is to get the best deal he can for the owner of that boat alone. The buying broker's obligation is to the buyer, to get hiim the best deal on a predefined boat type, not that specific boat If the selling broker's boat is not the best deal and the best fit, the buying broker moves on. The selling broker is still tied to selling that boat.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:16 PM   #55
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So you really believe that a "buyer's broker" would voluntarily try and fully negotiate a seller into a lower price, thus cutting his or her own commission without prejudice or bias? It's not possible... THAT is my point.

And with that, I think I must bow out of this discussion, especially since it is so off the OP topic.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #56
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I think the difference, in fact snd in perception, between a selling broker and a buyer's broker is pretty clear irrespective of the source of the payment-the selling broker's obligation is to the owner of a specific boat, his obligation is to get the best deal he can for the owner of that boat alone. The buying broker's obligation is to the buyer, to get hiim the best deal on a predefined boat type, not that specific boat If the selling broker's boat is not the best deal and the best fit, the buying broker moves on. The selling broker is still tied to selling that boat.
I don't konw how this got here from tipping the haulout staff but;

A seller's broker is paid a percentage of the sale price of the boat. His/her imcentive is to get the highest price for the buyer and the highest commision for him/herself.

A buyer's broker is in the conflicted position of trying to get the best value for the customer but that could mean a lower commision for the broker.

It's like when I had a stock broker and he would recommend that I sell one stock and buy another. He was making a commision on the sale so I was never sure if he was watching out for me or if he needed money for a new car.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:39 PM   #57
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So you really believe that a "buyer's broker" would voluntarily try and fully negotiate a seller into a lower price, thus cutting his or her own commission without prejudice or bias? It's not possible... THAT is my point.
Of course it's possible. We're talking about people here, not machines. It totally depends on the person acting as your "buyer's broker." In our case, our "buyer's broker" negotiated a reduction in the boat's price on his own initiative after we discovered a piece of equipment that wasn't even listed to be on the boat didn't work. And we continue to hear from local GB buyers who use him to help them find boats that he looks out for their interests the same as he looked out for ours. In some cases--- since the company he's the lead broker at tends to work with newer GBs--- he's gotten the price of a boat reduced by tens of thousands of dollars for his customers.

But that's him. It's why we continue to recommend him to people who ask us who a good person is to talk to about finding a GB. Are all "buyers brokers" like this? I have no clue. He's the only one we've ever used.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:41 PM   #58
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I may tip before the work begins, and maybe again after. I want to be differentiated from the rich cheap bastards.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:48 PM   #59
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I may tip before the work begins, and maybe again after. I want to be differentiated from the rich cheap bastards.
But Jeff, in your case you're doing the work yourself so do you tip yourself?
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:01 PM   #60
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Would they have been allowed to anchor in the cove without paying a fee? Does the fee include privileges such as restrooms, showers, trash dumping?

Some local governments have placed mooring balls in former anchorages and outlawed anchoring, presumably to collect revenue from those who formerly were able to anchor in the area for free. That seems unfair. It's not like charging for parking on a street where they own the street. They don't "own" the water.
Angel Island is a state park. There are several but less-protected anchorage locations around the island, but no anchoring that I'm aware of in Ayala Cove. There are boat berths for day use only and the moorage for day/night use. There are toilet facilities and trash cans ashore. ... Hate to imagine the chaos of unregulated anchoring in the cove, especially with the quirky tidal currents along with the frequent ferry services.

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