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Old 08-22-2012, 02:40 PM   #21
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As I said before 3 strand is easy to splice.

Anyone had any experience with splicing braded line?

A chafe in the middle of a 30 ft dock line and most folks just throw it away.

I see them in the dumpster often in the spring.

Do you repair or discard?

SD
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:57 PM   #22
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Along time ago I tied my boats nice an loose. How can a boat get into trouble? The first line holds the boat and the rest are redundant ... right? So what if my boat moves around a bit. And the boat can move some w/o jerking on the lines.

That worked well until I moved to Juneau Alaska. I saw other boats tied tight and thought their owners must be paranoid about them gett'in away.

Juneau is at the bottom of a 3000' mountain and there is the Taku Ice Field behind the mountains on the shore. Sometimes the air on top of the ice field gets very heavy and spills down over the mountain roaring through Juneau. I remember holding onto parking meters and rushing to the next or a car door handle just to stay upright. Well when the Taku Wind blows ones boat better be very TIGHTLY secured to the float. I almost lost my boat. From then on I tied my boats most of the time tight. A tight line has lots of tension but jerks much less. Jerking causes lots of chafing and can pull out cleats.

I use all nylon lines and clear plastic hose for chafing points. I tie 2 spring lines very tight to the midship samson post 10 to 20' long. Frequently I tie a large loop bowline and use it like a spliced eye. When it's re-tied differently at times most chafing will be avoided. And I don't forget how to tie a bowline either.

psneeld,
I always have condensation in my clear plastic hose for chafing. Has the condensation ever caused problems for you?
Nylon doesn't care if it's wet as far as rot goes..but it does as far as chafe goes...however inside the tubing...I don't think it's an issue...at least not on my boat.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:59 PM   #23
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Three Strand v braid? For dock lines, the material is important, whether it is three strand or braid is not. Docklines should be nylon, so that you get some shock absorption (stretch). Matters not whether three strand or braid. Both should get some chafe protection.
If you are tying up tight to a floating dock and the lines are very short...I'm not sure that stretch is important or even desired.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:14 PM   #24
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As I said before 3 strand is easy to splice.

A chafe in the middle of a 30 ft dock line and most folks just throw it away. I see them in the dumpster often in the spring. Do you repair or discard?

SD
We don't repair them but we don't necessarily throw them away. If the chafe or worn spot is very minor we may keep the line to use in some other mooring application that we know isn't going to stress the line a lot. But if it's become more obviously worn for some reason then we'll toss it out. The cost to repair it exceeds the cost of a new one and neither one of us knows how to splice braided line.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:31 PM   #25
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If you are tying up tight to a floating dock and the lines are very short...I'm not sure that stretch is important or even desired.
Stretch is very important. What about waves, passing boat wakes and surge?
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:47 PM   #26
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Have floating docks on both sides of the berth, so have a total of 8 dock lines: two springs and bow and stern lines on each side. Keep the lines semi-tight so the starboard side is closer to the dock without touching as this allows for an easy step onto the boat. Have 10 fenders: three cylinder and two round on each side. If one line breaks, the boat still won't be going anywhere. Loose lines are a source of wear and tear.

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Old 08-22-2012, 09:59 PM   #27
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Stretch is very important. What about waves, passing boat wakes and surge?

OK..then why do guys use 3/4 or bigger line on such short lines tied to a floating dock? If you want stretch...you should go WAY smaller and do more about chafe.

If they use all long lines to tie up great...but with the typical short line...I doubt you are getting much stretch. I work in the towing and salvage business where we are constantly short tying lines and such...I think you are kidding yourself to think stretch on those short, thick lines is very much...plus, on a floating dock the dock often moves right along with the boat for much of the travel.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:59 AM   #28
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What I intend to do is install a large cleat in the center of the stern rail for mooring lines both port and starboard. This way the boat can roll (as it does so very well) and all 4 mooring lines will be largely unaffected and under little stress. I wanted to do this before we left Alaska but other things ate up our time.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:34 AM   #29
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...If they use all long lines to tie up great...but with the typical short line...I doubt you are getting much stretch....
Long line or short line, nylon dock lines will stretch up to 15%. That's ~5" in 3 feet.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:48 AM   #30
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Long line or short line, nylon dock lines will stretch up to 15%. That's ~5" in 3 feet.
Yeah...maybe under constant strain or a shock load lasting long enough ....and doesn't it take max loading of say 15,000 lbs pull for 3/4 inch line to make it stretch that much???

Show me one video of a 3 foot piece of 3/4 inch nylon dockline stretching 5 inches when a boat moves from a passing boat wake and I'll believe you.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:24 AM   #31
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I would like to see some opinions on dock line tension.

I tend to snug all my lines up until my fenders are touching on both sides for times I am at the boat an back them off a touch when I leave just to save the gelcoat keeping the same amount of sag on all the lines. I cinch them down pretty tight on pending storms forecasting steady strong wind and double up on the bow and stern.

Just wondering what is the school of thought is from some of you old salts. Also what type rope do you perfer braid or strand.

Davy
My boat is at a floating slip in an area with reversing tidal currents. You have to restrain it from moving back and forth. Spring line, stern line, etc.

I have my lines fairly snug, but loose enough that they can be removed from the boat without removing them from the dock cleats. The lines stay at the slip, I have others for travelling.

I use three strand nylon at my home slip and braided nylon when travelling.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by psneeld

Yeah...maybe under constant strain or a shock load lasting long enough ....and doesn't it take max loading of say 15,000 lbs pull for 3/4 inch line to make it stretch that much???

Show me one video of a 3 foot piece of 3/4 inch nylon dockline stretching 5 inches when a boat moves from a passing boat wake and I'll believe you.
I have a better idea. Why don't you show us one video or any data, that states nylon will not provide any dampening force whatsoever unless it is under maximum tension and we'll believe you.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:41 AM   #33
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I have a better idea. Why don't you show us one video or any data, that states nylon will not provide any dampening force whatsoever unless it is under maximum tension and we'll believe you.
Nice copycat...haven't heard that since grade school...

Think about it or go to any line stretch chart like I just did. The 15% is at max breaking strength. Sure there is some stretch but when you have short lines...if the stretch is even available that instantaneously, then it is used up (if a 3 foot line has 5-6 inches of stretch) pretty quickly when you are talking a 1-2 foot wake (if you guys are whining about 5 inch wakes...holy cow). And that only if each line is getting a 15,000 # jerk on it...imagine the tiny little stretch if only several thousand pounds per dock line....surely that gets all used up in even a gentle rocking on shorter floating dock lines. (again assuning a 3/4 inch dockline).

I've seen plenty of docks damaged from tight lines that were nylon...just not enough stretch that it mattered....but then again they were crappy docks....I've not seen a cleat pulled on a big fiberglass boat tied snugly to a floating dock even in hurricane conditions.

A lot of people use those rubber snubbers or rig things to dampen the shock loading on their nylon docklines because the "give" just isn't enough on anything but very long or thinner docklines. That is what I stated right from the very beginning. Use too thick a dockline to overcome the "chafe fear" and you lose the benifits of stretchy nylon.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:51 AM   #34
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Yeah...maybe under constant strain or a shock load lasting long enough ....and doesn't it take max loading of say 15,000 lbs pull for 3/4 inch line to make it stretch that much???

No it doesn't and normal working loads for 3/4" nylon is ~1,500 lbs

"It has high elasticity and will
stretch 10-15% under normal working loads
and 40% as the load approaches breaking
strength. This elasticity makes it highly desirable
for use as anchor rode, for towing
and for dock lines, as the stretch absorbs
shock.."


http://seagrant.uaf.edu/bookstore/boatkeeper/rope.pdf

New England Ropes says their 3/4" premium nylon will elongate just over 10% at 20% of the lines tensile strength and ~13% at 30% of the tensile strength.

http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_3S_nylon.pdf

Show me one video of a 3 foot piece of 3/4 inch nylon dockline stretching 5 inches when a boat moves from a passing boat wake and I'll believe you.
Sorry, they haven't made the movie yet.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:57 AM   #35
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psneeld,
I was very surprised at the degree of stretch in nylon several years ago. I was laying out a long spring line (about 30' and 1/2" dia) and pulling on it rather hard. It was like pulling on a big bungi. Made me wonder how much tension or stretch will nylon line take before it fails to return to it's original length. Perhaps it rarely does and if we could accurately measure it we'd find that even w a gentle pull nylon line elongates 1/2 a thousandths of an inch and if layed out in the shade for a day 99% of that would settle out and the line would once again be almost it's original length. Of course we'll never know but nylon IS very stretchy.

Just re-read your post and see your point ... at least what I think is your point. Yes in short lengths of mooring line the stretch is hardly worth talking about. But perhaps the very small amount of stretch in a short line absorbs shock in a very beneficial way.

Just re-read your OTHER post and see the bit about shock. Stretch 40%??? That's a lot of stretch.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:06 AM   #36
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So nylon does stretch and can provide some dampening.

Thank you for your reply.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:07 AM   #37
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...Think about it or go to any line stretch chart like I just did. The 15% is at max breaking strength...
I don't think you're reading the your stretch chart correctly or it's wrong.

Here's an other reference from the McGraw-Hill Boating Encyclopedia:

"Nylon is a synthetic plastic that was marketed after World War II. In fiber form, its stretchability makes it particularly suitable for anchor rodes, mooring lines, and dinghy painters. Under a 20 percent load, nylon has a working elasticity of about 22 percent, or more than a fifth of its length. This compares with a stretch of about 9 percent in Dacron, another synthetic plastic fiber. Nylonís high stretch enables it to absorb the shocks a boat generates while at anchoró shocks that would otherwise part the line, unseat the anchor, or damage deck cleats or mooring bitts."
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:10 AM   #38
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I'm not discussing that nylon isn't stretchy...it is...so much so that I am scared to use it when ungrounding boats at night because I have had them slingshot into me.

There are all different brands, lays , and makeup of nylon docklines...some have a LOT more stretch than others...but like I said...on a 3-5 foot dockline holding a boat tight to a floating dock...the elasticity is just not enough to matter that much....the bow and stern lines that are maybe 15-20 feet sure. And if you use long springs and don't use thos short lines...then yes...but that's NOT the way many boaters tie to a floater...they use short lines and at that point is where I said I doubt it really matters what you use (or go thinner diameter with good chafe guards).

If nylon was all that great because of stretch...why don't we use it instead of rubber bands???? Could it possibly be because of the different "stretchyness" characteristics????
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #39
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I don't think you're reading the your stretch chart correctly or it's wrong.

Here's an other reference from the McGraw-Hill Boating Encyclopedia:

"Nylon is a synthetic plastic that was marketed after World War II. In fiber form, its stretchability makes it particularly suitable for anchor rodes, mooring lines, and dinghy painters. Under a 20 percent load, nylon has a working elasticity of about 22 percent, or more than a fifth of its length. This compares with a stretch of about 9 percent in Dacron, another synthetic plastic fiber. Nylon’s high stretch enables it to absorb the shocks a boat generates while at anchor— shocks that would otherwise part the line, unseat the anchor, or damage deck cleats or mooring bitts."
Again...based on my "salvage and towing" experience with nylon and other materials...it by far has the most stretchability. But outside the "testing lab" it just doesn't have this instantaneous, majic ability to absorb all that energy from rocking and rolling at a dock if the lines are short.

I've been looking to see the "rate" at wich it will stretch 10-20 percent, I see it in towlines all the time...yes I can visually see it with boats surging along...but it's far from the instantaneous tugs you get in a docking situation...so that would be some info that would interest me more than the absolute stretch numbers from a test lab.

And even if it does...my explanation that the full elongation of a short line probably isn't enough to take much of the load out of the size of waves/wakes that would severly rock boats like ours....only if the lines are much, much longer than the 3-5 foot short ones I am talking about.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:37 AM   #40
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Davy Jones - had a similar occurrence not long ago. I have a cast aluminum mooring bit with a "square" cross section, but with nicely rounded or beveled corners. I use a three strand nylon 1/2" keeper for the anchor with two spliced eyes. One eye over the bit, through the shackle on the anchor, and the other eye over the bit. No tension on it at all except, maybe, in rough water. Went to use it and discovered one eye had parted completely with what looked like, to my amateur eye, a chafing failure. The keeper was about a year old. I guess the lesson is that anytime you bend a line over metal, even if it looks rounded and not abrasive, there's the potential for damage/failure.
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