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Old 05-30-2015, 09:24 AM   #21
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Band B not my idea but the light long and skinny versions of ocean hoppers being developed and tested are targeted at outdoing the NH and its close cousins. The goal is to achieve greater speed for less fuel and with proper weight distribution and stabilization greater comfort in half the passage time. The lessons learned in other industries will and are creeping into boat engineering and construction. Sail boats because of their use in open water and transoceanic racing have led the industry and power boats are following. There will always be a place for the old school boats but it will not be first across the finish line nor necessarily the strongest built or most comfortable. My point regarding plug thickness comes down to thick construction is often old school mentality.

I'd rather comfortably cross the ocean in my floating condo (Nordahvn) then a light and skinny barebones coffin that can go fast. No thank you, I'm not trying to break records.

The plug to me is worth a thousand words. If it's worthless to you, then great.


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Old 05-30-2015, 10:36 AM   #22
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[QUOTE=eyschulman;336949]Heavy and thick are not necessarily indicators of good construction. Light and well engineered is usually far better for any conveyance that needs to move under some source of power. /QUOTE]

Well....I don't know about you but "heavy & thick" sure floats my boat when the sea starts to kick up! I feel more at ease than when I'm bobbing like a cork in "light & well engineered" boats.
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Old 05-30-2015, 10:54 AM   #23
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The only problem I have is that the gel-coat is slightly too thick in places and where's its thick its spider cracks a little.
That's been my experience on my boat. The gel coat is too thick!

(Edit) The photos don't show the "spiders" in the radii of the glass.
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:02 AM   #24
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Band B not my idea but the light long and skinny versions of ocean hoppers being developed and tested are targeted at outdoing the NH and its close cousins. The goal is to achieve greater speed for less fuel and with proper weight distribution and stabilization greater comfort in half the passage time. The lessons learned in other industries will and are creeping into boat engineering and construction. Sail boats because of their use in open water and transoceanic racing have led the industry and power boats are following. There will always be a place for the old school boats but it will not be first across the finish line nor necessarily the strongest built or most comfortable. My point regarding plug thickness comes down to thick construction is often old school mentality.
I don't think anyone is "learning" from sail boats. It's all well known. Ocean-going trawlers CHOOSE to be different from sail boats, favoring space and comfort over speed at any cost. See Oliver's post about Condo vs Coffin. The Dashew style sail boat hull with a motor and without a keel have their place and clearly some number of people like that balance. Just keep in mind that even boats traveling all over the world spend 10% or less (probably a lot less) of their time doing multi-day passages, so you need to think carefully about how much you optimize for that 10% at the expense of the majority 90%.
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:28 AM   #25
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...... the light long and skinny versions of ocean hoppers being developed and tested are targeted at outdoing the NH and its close cousins.
I don't think that's the case at all!
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:55 PM   #26
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Pretty much all the above arguments about lighter boats were raised when lighter(not nec. ultra light) modern sailing craft including multihulls came along. With sailing craft it has become apparent that light modern craft are safe and can be comfortable. I am not talking radical light but when comparing my previous J/44 at 24,000 lb to an equivalent older 44 boat at 50,000lb the ocean crossing abilities were very significant. If you spend two weeks less out in open water you are that much safer. If one's mind set is firmly in the camp of heavy is better than the NH should have a heavy steel hull and there are plenty of offshore boat builders who may agree since that's how they build. This type of difference of opinion can never be resolved. The hard numbers regarding passage times and fuel burn can be compared but things like comfort, and perception of build quality, and safety are often more subjective. As for plugs yes they can say a lot about a build but the thickness is not the key point. A thick plug with bad materials or poor laminate technique may be far inferior to a thin plug.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:23 PM   #27
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Pretty much all the above arguments about lighter boats were raised when lighter(not nec. ultra light) modern sailing craft including multihulls came along. With sailing craft it has become apparent that light modern craft are safe and can be comfortable. I am not talking radical light but when comparing my previous J/44 at 24,000 lb to an equivalent older 44 boat at 50,000lb the ocean crossing abilities were very significant. If you spend two weeks less out in open water you are that much safer. If one's mind set is firmly in the camp of heavy is better than the NH should have a heavy steel hull and there are plenty of offshore boat builders who may agree since that's how they build. This type of difference of opinion can never be resolved. The hard numbers regarding passage times and fuel burn can be compared but things like comfort, and perception of build quality, and safety are often more subjective. As for plugs yes they can say a lot about a build but the thickness is not the key point. A thick plug with bad materials or poor laminate technique may be far inferior to a thin plug.
We're not a sailing group though and when it comes to power boats, the consumer has spoken over and over and while narrow and light is popular for high performance boats when it comes to trawler buyers and yacht buyers it's been soundly rejected. There is nothing new about the concept. Yes, if you want the most economical loop boat, just get a sail boat and remove the sails. But 99.9% of power boat owners do not want to spend a year or two looping on that boat.

People don't want the absolutely most fuel efficient streamlined boat, they want something in between. If they wanted that, they'd just put motors on kayaks and go.

You are right that if one wants more weight and a better crossing than NH they can go to steel. But steel comes with it's negatives and NH makes a good compromise. All boats are compromises. I'm personally not an NH fan, but I don't argue with the facts that they're very popular and their customers on the whole are extremely happy with them. And the NH customer is not about to switch to long, skinny and light. That isn't who that boat would even be targeting. It's real target is the sailor coming over to the dark side of power who appreciates the design and efficiency and doesn't mind the aspects of it that most traditional power boaters dislike.

Your perfect boat, eyshulman, is not one the majority of the market has interest in and has not yet ever been shown to have commercial viability. I do hope one day you're lucky enough to get one. But if I won one in a lottery tomorrow, it would be on the market to be sold the next day. Just we're all after different things.

Long, skinny and light is different to different people too. William Garden believed in the concepts but just applied them in different ways. For instance, most Westports are Garden designs and they'll all run 25 knots WOT and cruise at 20, from the just dropped 85' to the 164'. Of course, the 85' carries 3000 hp and consumes 80 gph at 20 knots and the 130' carries 5780 hp and consumes 130 gph at 20 knots. However, that is significantly better both performance and fuel wise than most other boats in that size range. By comparison a 100' Hatteras requires 5200 hp to run the same speeds as the 130' WP and consumes 150-160 gph doing it.

Most engineering concepts are not applied in their purest forms but used to improve boats that are in the market place and meet needs. In my previous work life our engineers developed the absolutely scientifically proven best bath towel ever. It dried better, was better for one's skin, and it would quickly dry out and no mildew or smell. Washed well and lasted three times as long as traditional towels. Only one problem Took it to a focus group and not a single person said they would ever buy one. The consensus, "It looked and felt odd." Who knows, it may resurface in 20 years. But the consumer speaks last and most powerfully.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:27 PM   #28
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Excess weight is bad wherever it is in vehicles.

My Willard gave me the opposite experience. A much smaller boat but a plug taken out of the hull just inbd of the chine was only 3/8ths to 7/16" thick. I was expecting about 1/2". We have slammed into a large log and T boned an adult male Humpback whale w/o the slightest damage. So if she can take 12 to 15' seas (and I'm quite sure she can) she's strong enough.

In the 50s cars had such thick fenders one could do just about anything w them and I never altered the shape of them w my body. New cars are so thin I could easily pound many dents in them w/o damage to my body. Nobody is complaining about them being too weak though. Early FG boats of the 50s Nd 60s were way heavier than present day boats. I suspect passagemaker are a repeat of the cars in that if one dosn't really know how strong and thick they need to be ... better error on the heavy side for structure.

Another good reason not to buy a passagemaker unless you plan to cross oceans. And then since passagemakers are new and the learning curve high perhaps buying the latest developed boat could be a wise move. Buying a passagemakers to coastal cruise is not smart IMO.

But Dusky (name of boat I assume) still does very very well at coastal cruising as well as passage making but an equal quality coastal cruiser would be lighter and better in most all ways I'm think'in. In this game one tends to think "the heavier the better" but I think as long as it's heavy enough any more weight is a bad thing ... absolutly undesirable.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:33 PM   #29
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Excess weight is bad wherever it is in vehicles.
.
Good in dump trucks.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:35 PM   #30
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Ok let me clear some things up, this is the "Dusky" or one of the tenders to the Nordhavn. She's a great little fishing, skiing, or just romp around boat.
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Like Peter said if I wanted to cross oceans everyday the skinny lighter boat maybe the way to go. But up aheads plans involve crossing a handful of large bodies of water. So I'm not too worried. I like my floating condo that has the ability to cross oceans.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:36 PM   #31
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But Dusky (name of boat I assume) still does very very well at coastal cruising as well as passage making but an equal quality coastal cruiser would be lighter and better in most all ways I'm think'in. In this game one tends to think "the heavier the better" but I think as long as it's heavy enough any more weight is a bad thing ... absolutly undesirable.
Dusky isn't the name of a boat. Dusky is a brand of boat. He's not talking about his Nordhavn. He's talking about his tender. Dusky isn't by any means a passage maker or a coastal cruiser. It's a tender and a play boat.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:38 PM   #32
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That's been my experience on my boat. The gel coat is too thick!

(Edit) The photos don't show the "spiders" in the radii of the glass.

We actually have the same problem with the Nordhavn too. None of it is structural but they do get annoying to look at. Our boat was an early hull that may have contributed to that but I'm not quite sure.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:42 PM   #33
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Weight in the hull is always an acceptable trade as the boats longevity is determined by stiffness.

The formula 3 hp per ton (2240 lbs) would suggest an extra that a few more layers of GRP between you and the ocean might only cost a few cents per hour at 15hp per gallon of fuel burn.

The 500 lb marble counter top (if you are not a chocolatier or pastery chief) might be a waste.

A ton or more of ballast to smooth the ride in big seas might make sense for the few boats that will ever go off the shelf.

Ballast is a waste in an alongshore cruiser.Shallow draft is more useful.
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:05 PM   #34
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What argument( price aside) would be made about a NH that was 50,000lb lighter and stronger and less weight aloft, same layout ? back to the OP I merely point out that plug THICKNESS is not a reliable indicator of strength or build quality.
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:21 PM   #35
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What argument( price aside) would be made about a NH that was 50,000lb lighter and stronger and less weight aloft, same layout ? back to the OP I merely point out that plug THICKNESS is not a reliable indicator of strength or build quality.
This is classic.

If the hull was still a slow displacement....weight when punching through waves comes in handy. Sure theres the total energy question...but mass has its virtues sometimes.

Then the argument tat lighter could mean speed thus avoiding the worst of the weather.

There's many angles to this discussion and really most points to that have even made are only tiny pieces of the puzzle.Total design becomes a vicious circle....bigger, faster, more fuel, bigger engines more length, more speed, more fuel.... Assumptions made in a vacuum are meaningless.

I will admit that thick doesn't mean anything but clearing hole saws more.
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:15 PM   #36
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What argument( price aside) would be made about a NH that was 50,000lb lighter and stronger and less weight aloft, same layout ? back to the OP I merely point out that plug THICKNESS is not a reliable indicator of strength or build quality.
You just described Nordhavn's Coastal Pilot, designed for Coastal cruising. I personally think a mistake on their part but we'll see. Nordhavn represents certain things and has an extremely loyal following. For them to stray from that would be an extremely dangerous move. I've seen many companies try to reposition themselves and most fail.

This isn't about making the perfect boat. This is about making a successful long lasting business which they've done, based on a very good boat that fit a market demand.

I'm not going to name a brand here but there is one that makes boats similarly sized to Nordhavn out of lighter materials and advertises them as worthy of crossing oceans. But most of them are not and they're definitely not as nice a boat as a Nordhavn. There are plenty of boats of different types appealing to different people. Nordhavn has no need to lighten their boat or make other significant changes.

I know you love your boat and I am very happy for you and respect that love. I know we own boats most here would hate and that's fair. But I ask you to consider this, how many Devlins are being produced and sold a year? My wife thinks manyboat's Willard is just the cutest coolest boat and it does what he wants extremely well. However, you don't see Willard's being built and sold at volume today. I find myself upset regularly when someone stops a product I loved. But it happens because the majority of people don't share my love. I very much respect your views and what you like but it's definitely not mainstream. Nordhavn has shown they know what they're doing and again I say this although I'm not a Nordhavn fan. But then if I set up to produce my ideal boat, I'd probably never sell one.
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:35 PM   #37
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I have a plug from Possum that looks thick and solid to me. I take comfort in it when I use my keel to plow a new channel.

I also have a plug a customer gave me from a big boat he was having built. It's more than two inches of solid glass. The hull is massive strong. A few years later the boat sank when it hit a rock and the shaft tunnel / skeg got knocked off. It was basically glued on with minimal mechanical fasteners. The boat was built by a respected left coast builder. You just never know.

When I was playing with race boats, the saying was "if it breaks make it stronger, if it doesn't break make it lighter."

Now I say if it breaks make it stronger and easier to get to!
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Old 05-30-2015, 08:39 PM   #38
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.

I know you love your boat and I am very happy for you and respect that love. I know we own boats most here would hate and that's fair. But I ask you to consider this, how many Devlins are being produced and sold a year? My wife thinks manyboat's Willard is just the cutest coolest boat and it does what he wants extremely well. However, you don't see Willard's being built and sold at volume today. I find myself upset regularly when someone stops a product I loved. But it happens because the majority of people don't share my love. I very much respect your views and what you like but it's definitely not mainstream. Nordhavn has shown they know what they're doing and again I say this although I'm not a Nordhavn fan. But then if I set up to produce my ideal boat, I'd probably never sell one.
My Devlin is certainly not light displacement nor is it meant for crossing oceans. There is no way boats like mine are going to be produced in volume. Moon River was built to my very specific specifications as a complete one off which would not please most trawler owners nor would they be happy with the cost and major depreciation on taking ownership. I do not consider MR a trawler and do not attempt comparisons with a NH. I might compare a Flemming with NH for occasional open ocean use. If I spent most of the time crossing oceans I would give more weight to the NH if sail or a motor sailor were out of the picture.
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:03 PM   #39
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Moon River was built to my very specific specifications as a complete one off which would not please most trawler owners nor would they be happy with the cost and major depreciation on taking ownership. .
That was the point. You have unique tastes that result in the precise boat you want. We don't have a Trawler either nor anything with a displacement hull. And we're too conservative to ever do a one off and unique boat like Devlin. I don't anticipate us ever building a fully custom boat. Ours, you can ride around Fort Lauderdale of most anywhere else and see the same models coming and going. Yours stands beautifully out in a crowd.

And the engineering masterpieces of long, skinny and light will remain one offs or nearly that. Nothing at all wrong with that. They just don't have mass appeal. I admire those with the patience to go through the process as well.
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:09 PM   #40
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The hull is massive strong. A few years later the boat sank when it hit a rock and the shaft tunnel / skeg got knocked off. It was basically glued on with minimal mechanical fasteners. The boat was built by a respected left coast builder. You just never know.
Seldom is failure a hole in a hull and most of the time when it is, it wouldn't matter how well the hull was built. Too many other points of failure.

But it's like discussions of ocean worthiness. A lot more boats ocean capable than there are owners.
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