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Old 04-14-2012, 08:00 PM   #81
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Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Are you telling me I'm not very objective?
That would be a hard blow to me as I strive to be objective. Perhaps I'm say'in most of the guys say'in the'd never have a wood boat because you have to paint them too often are'nt being very objective. Read Marin's posts .....he's better w words than me. And he's got more words too. Most people go'in around say'in they'd never have a wood boat do'nt know anything about them. They just hear lots of other guys say that. And to appear knowledgeable they say that. Most people have a tendency to lean in the direction of the most popular opinions. Know'in you I'd say you're not slam'in me but most boaters don't give the wood boat enough credit. That's great for the people buy'in wood boats and not so good for those sell'in.
I would have to say no on the totally objective part.

About half the things you listed are debateable.

Most glass boats are a lot of wood on the inside.

I don't like wood boats not because I have to paint them...it's because having owned a few and been on a lot...I don't like the feeling when they start working in a seaway that a plank might let go at any moment.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:54 PM   #82
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psneeld,
Yes the wood inside a FG boat is wood but it's necessary to give the weak plastic enough strength to be a marketable product. It's part of a FG boat. Sure you could build a stronger plastic boat but it would not be built out of pollyester resin and glass strand. It would be epoxy and kevlar or another exotic and expensive material. Yes an old boat that needs to be refastened does work and is not stiff but it's not a properly maintained boat. A FG boat w a bulsa cored deck will fail too but it's not a properly maintained boat either. A properly maintained wood boat is stronger and stiffer than a FG boat. Is that not true?
Debateable ?......Perhaps. Most things in boating and on TF are debateable.
I reread my post and do'nt see anything that I would call debateable.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:34 PM   #83
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So far proper maintenance is the common denominator in all boats. Wood, steel, aluminum, fiberglass. Power or sail.

The only thing debatable is if the previous owner provided it. If an experienced surveyor finds the boat to be in good serviceable order it will come down to picking ones flavor and learning the quirks. So far no different IMO than any of the boats represented by this Forum.

FWIW We are leaning more toward wood as our quest to find that ever elusive "perfect boat" continues. We like the character of the examples we've seen so far and quite agree with Marin's general assessment about aesthetics. Boats are like wine, they evoke ones passionate side. Probably why they are so often named after significant ladies in ones life.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:52 PM   #84
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Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Are you telling me I'm not very objective?
That would be a hard blow to me as I strive to be objective. Perhaps I'm say'in most of the guys say'in the'd never have a wood boat because you have to paint them too often are'nt being very objective. Read Marin's posts .....he's better w words than me. And he's got more words too. Most people go'in around say'in they'd never have a wood boat do'nt know anything about them. They just hear lots of other guys say that. And to appear knowledgeable they say that. Most people have a tendency to lean in the direction of the most popular opinions. Know'in you I'd say you're not slam'in me but most boaters don't give the wood boat enough credit. That's great for the people buy'in wood boats and not so good for those sell'in.
Eric - I did not mean to offend.

My post was meant as a peace pipe.

I know that well built wood boats are good boats; similar to but simply with different material than well built foberglass boats. Remenber form my previous posts that I worked on, pleasured upon, fished from, and in boatyards repaired/refinished wood boats for nearly two decades when young... I pretty well know the in and outs of wood boats. Wood boats were the vast majority when I was young. I also know fiberglass boats. Taken care of well built boats from either material are top-line craft!
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:41 AM   #85
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Art,
Remember when the 62' Cris Craft motoryacht was the standard of the industry? Powered by 3 160 hp Cris Craft flathead 6 cyl engines. There was Nordberg, Red Wing, Palmer and lots of other flathead engines. They sounded wonderful and were so smooth they were mounted directly to the engine stringers. The wood of the hull probably absorbed some on the vibration that was left. I remember stripping the paint of wood hulls w a propane torch. I do'nt know if FG will stand up to that much heat. Never tried it. I think plywood boats were the strongest ever built in mass. Douglas Fir plywood, oak frames and monel or bronze fastners. Most of the yachts of this period were truly beautiful and well built. But FF is right. One cannot ignore a wood boat. Nor can one ignore a Jaguar or Porshe. Many of the best things in life require extra care but they repay in excellence. But most people do'nt care for a wood boat so buying an old wood pleasure boat is questionable but many old fish boats remain in excellent condition. Walk the docks in Petersburg Alaska and you will see them tied next to FG, steel and aluminum boats.
I still see nothing wrong w my nine claims for wood boats.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:56 AM   #86
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Greetings,
Mr. Willy. You forgot Hercules flat heads. I think ONE of the problems a lot of people see with wooden boats is rot due to fresh water. Either being operated in freshwater or if in salt, freshwater accumulating in the bilges from rain leakage. Saltwater acts as a preservative and one is less likely to see a 50 year old freshwater boat as opposed to a 50 year old saltwater boat.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:20 AM   #87
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115 hp Chrysler Crown flat head in our 23' 1948 Chris Craft Express cabin cruiser. 327 cid Chevy block CC marineized in our 34' Johnson Bros. lapstrake trunk-cabin cruiser. 155 hp Nordberg Knight in our Freeport Point custom built 38' raised deck, fly bridge sportfisher with full salon and accomidations. Tore out the Nordberg and put in 180 hp Perkins. NY... early 60's marine gas $0.29 and diesel $0.19. Man, those WERE the days for inexpensive boating!
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:04 AM   #88
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psneeld,
Yes the wood inside a FG boat is wood but it's necessary to give the weak plastic enough strength to be a marketable product. It's part of a FG boat. Sure you could build a stronger plastic boat but it would not be built out of pollyester resin and glass strand. It would be epoxy and kevlar or another exotic and expensive material. Yes an old boat that needs to be refastened does work and is not stiff but it's not a properly maintained boat. A FG boat w a bulsa cored deck will fail too but it's not a properly maintained boat either. A properly maintained wood boat is stronger and stiffer than a FG boat. Is that not true?
Debateable ?......Perhaps. Most things in boating and on TF are debateable.
I reread my post and do'nt see anything that I would call debateable.
OK...materials, maintenance, construction method except cold molding which then there's not a lot of difference, cost, etc...etc...aside.

List one super yacht, or round the world racer or gov't boat (again unlimited funds and maintenance) that has been built of wood in the last 20 years.

I love the look and feel of a wood boat (not always the smell)...and ...up north it's a SLIGHTLY different story...down in the tropics...wood boat?....fogataboutit!

My issue...is a popped plank will ruin your day. And I know so will a thruhull...but not like a popped plank. And don't sell me maintenance because plenty of well maintained ones have done the same...I know I've spent 23 years in the USCG and the last 10 with an assistance towing/salvage company to see the differece between wood/glass boats and what may or may not happen.

Objective?...every post you get farther away. Using a propane torch on a glass boat....why in the world would you????
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:01 AM   #89
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I strongly recommend reading the following. - Art

How Long do Fiberglass Boats Last?

http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf

Shields #231:
We know that wood eventually rots and steel corrodes at a set “allowance” per year. Maintenance is key to achieving even normal life expectancy with wood or metal boats. However, fiberglass hulls have been pulled from out of the weeds and up from the depths to be restored to original luster. A case in point is the salvage of Shields #231, which sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 when swamped by a Long Island Sound Easterly. She was floated again on October 2, 2002. Figure 1 shows the boat as it was hauled from the bottom and Figure 2 shows her restored with a new paint job. The boat went on to race competitively in her fleet.

Also, I recommend you see the following picture journal

The Salvage of Shields #231:
Shields #231 sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 by swamping in an Easterly. She was floated again October 2, 2002. #231 is refitted and rechristened "Mermaid", rejoining Fleet #1.

http://www.shieldsfleetone.org/Photos/Photos_231_Salvage/231%20salvage.htm
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:14 AM   #90
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psneeld,
" Using a propane torch on a glass boat....why in the world would you????"
To remove the old paint silly guy. Did it all the time in the old days. The paint would just bubble up a bit, get nice and soft and one swipe w a scraper and you're down to the primer. With a quick brush w sandpaper you're ready for recoat. Was easy but took some time.
Do'nt know anything about super yachts and do'nt have much interest so you tell me.
Popped planks? Do'nt remember them. Further from objectivity? You may be right but I still do'nt see any flaws in my nine points. I'd like not to argue w you and I have no interest in winning same but I do think wood boats have a lot more value than most perceive. But if you see this as an easy argument to win for obvious reasons I'll bail on you. But wood boats DO NOT have the monstrous problems of FG boats like rotten stringers, failed decks and cabins from mushy bulsa cores, blisters, gelcoat issues and excessive weight. And Art, how did "Shields" overcome all of these problems ....except for the weight issue? I've seen lots of FG boats in the weeds wondering why nobody resurrects them? FG was to be the last forever boat but they seem to get to the derelict state even quicker than wood boats did. Aluminum is probably the closest we'll ever get to the maintenance free boat. OK I'll admit FG boats are more maintenance free but only if one avoids all of the evils listed above. I wonder how many do?
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:30 AM   #91
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[QUOTE=manyboats,

OK I'll admit FG boats are more maintenance free but only if one avoids all of the evils listed above. I wonder how many do?[/QUOTE]

One of a few: Tollycraft

Any other questions?
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:14 AM   #92
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"FG boats like rotten stringers, failed decks and cabins from mushy bulsa cores, blisters, gelcoat issues and excessive weight."

Money talks , all of the GRP problems listed come from the boat builder assembler choosing a low buck build.

Foam core or glass stringers do not rot.

Balsa core is 1/4 the cost or less of good foam which does nor rot.

Gelcoat problems are a production lack of skill/ cheap procedure problem.

For 3 decades the better euro boats are painted , not gel coated.

After the '73 War blisters became a problem , as usual cured with money for better resin.

GRP is almost forever , but it too needs to be done correctly, and not as low buck as possible!

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:36 AM   #93
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We have found many fiberglass boats but keep falling in love with the look feel and ride of the woodies.

If there is a cure for this ailment we sure are interested in finding it
It sounds like your are going to have to "scratch that itch"!

I owned a 32' Monk for 10 years (the site www.curlew.com that I created 10 years ago when I sold it is still up). Moored in fresh water and kept under cover its entire life, I still had a couple of major rot projects come up - replacing the splined planks in the cabin side (which I did myself) and replacing the entire transom (hired a professional, spent the approximate $10K original cost of the boat). And I heard that the subsequent buyer ended up doing some frames a few years later and spent almost that amount again.

With my experience (and extensive second-hand experience), I would suggest restricting your search to a boat in great condition to start with, and spending as much as it takes to keep it that way - including covered moorage, custom covers, etc. Anything short of that, and you're not likely to be able to push that boulder up the mountain.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:59 AM   #94
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As I said Fred.....A marketable product needs to compete w all the other builders and most all are probably using the same cheap methods for the same reason. It's just too easy to build the boat cheap and sell lots. All products are built to a price and need to survive in the marketplace but to be honest I really do'nt know what's being built out there now ..quality wise. But if somebody was to tell me most all of them are top quality boats I'd be very skeptical.
refugio,
Sounds like you got bit by fresh water rot. Most all boats in saltwater last much longer than in fresh (especially those made of Douglas Fir). But all boats basically are subject to fresh water rot in the decks and cabin. In covered moorage most people rent a slip the same length as their boat ...not good. The rain water, whenever there is a wind. often, blows the rain in on the boat ..... most often into the stern cockpit. But enough of this rot. Please tell us about your beautiful boat. Looks like the mother of all trawlers. Post the avatar pic so we can see it big.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:36 PM   #95
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Quote:
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Most all boats in saltwater last much longer than in fresh...
IMHO it's hard to make accurate general statements about boats, wooden boats in particular. While salt water can be a preservative for wood, so can (cold) fresh water - there's an underwater forest in Lake Washington about a mile from my house that is amazing, and recovering sunken logs from BC mountain lakes is a very viable business.

And while saltwater may help preserve wood, it is nothing but trouble for: metal fastenings, electrical wiring and components, paint and varnish finishes, fabrics...in fact, damn near everything else.

In higher lattitudes the effects are somewhat reduced - lower temps, lower salinity, less sun (both duration and intensity) - but I would still do whatever I could to keep the boat out of the elements. Perhaps the best place to moor a wooden boat (in the water, year around) would be a boathouse on a brackish river inlet.

Quote:
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Please tell us about your beautiful boat. Looks like the mother of all trawlers. Post the avatar pic so we can see it big.
You can see a larger version of the avatar photo on martinetraffic.com, and enter my avatar name. I've been around the trawler lists for a logn time, but the past few years I've been distracted by a series of smaller boats (Arima, Osprey, C-Dory) that I had in the San Juans to get to our cabin. Since the cabin sold on Friday, I'm back to my main (and only!) boat. It's a 44', 30 ton, ferro-cement trawler built (reportedly) by the yard manager of the Samson Marine plant in Tacoma, who died soon after its completion. A lady doctor lived on it in Des Moines, then I bought it about 10 years ago. I did a few projects on it before the distractions, and right now I'm in the early stages of updating the interior.

One of the benefits of substantial displacement is the option to add heavy things without upsetting the trim - that's a Nautica 13.5 WideBody with a Yamaha F50 Hi Thrust hanging off the stern.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:34 AM   #96
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It's just too easy to build the boat cheap and sell lots

True in the small boat market , but in bigger boats the typical Bayliner .purchaser would never consider a Hateris or Nordhaven.

To sell product with in the selected market is the goal.

RR vs Chevy , no competition exists.

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Old 04-17-2012, 08:27 AM   #97
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Wooden boats if you love them take no more maintenance than others , it's all about the love and also you gotta know what you are doing.
OK you have to haul out at least every 12 months to check for worms, once you get the painting right it stays on for a good while, depending upon the timber, with hardwood boats in Aus (think spotted gum, blue gum etc) a good paint job will last 3/5 years, soft wood boats , can be two packed and the paint job lasts for 7/10 years, the soft wood boats the planks don't move as much and can also be splined so that they are smooth as a babys bum.
The joy of a wooden boat is in the care and workmanship.

Attached are a couple of photos during a complete repaint about 6 years ago, only touch ups since then but needs another good sand and paint this June.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:21 PM   #98
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Ben,
I love your cross planked bottom. Makes so much more sense structureally and one can make use of shorter planks. Is there a down side that you'd like to share?
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:39 PM   #99
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Isn't it triple planked?
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:55 PM   #100
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Eric,
It is what is called a "sharpie "in Australia (fence paleings).
Cheaper to build , probably loose a bit in sea keeping (Tidahapah is a proven really good sea boat) and a bit more stable at rest than a carvel hull and afterall as a cruiser I spend much more time at rest than on the move.

Art, No it is not tripple planked is is solid 1 1/2" spotted gum planks on spotted gum frames with naturally grown knees.
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