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Old 04-01-2015, 12:55 AM   #1
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Teak decking on 2000+ Kadey Krogen 39

Having absorbed much of the "anti-teak" sentiment expressed here I have a question. While comparing raised pilothouse trawlers in the 37-42 foot range circa 2000 vintage we have developed a liking for the Krogen 39 pilothouse. We may consider older and longer boats for similar money to the 34-37 tugs.
About the only negative I can see is the teak decking (albeit sheltered) on the side decks and cockpit.
Three questions:
1) Is this likely to prove a structural problem?
2) Are the decks balsa cored?
3) Would there be a problem with a non-wooden core?
I understand the maintenance (both deck and other exterior teak) issues but do like the look and feel of the teak. Any boats have bonded, not screwed, teak decks? If so is this satisfactory?
Thanks for any help,
Grae.
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Old 04-01-2015, 01:21 AM   #2
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Can't help you much with 2 and 3, but the answer to 1 is no. Teak decking on a fiberglass boat is purely cosmetic as well as adding a superior traction surface to the deck.

The teak does add stiffness to the fiberglass/core/fiberglass sandwich subdeck, so if the teak is removed a couple of layers of fiberglass generally need to be put on top of the subdeck to restore the stiffness provided by the teak. This is not a hard and fast rule and will vary with the construction of the specific boat, of course.

Some manufacturers like Grand Banks and Fleming began gluing their teak decks down rather than screwing them down. But if memory serves, this did not start happening until the early-to-mid-2000s or thereabouts, but I could be wrong on that. I have no idea if Krogen ever went to the glued-down teak method.

Regarding question 3, I would think that a non-wood core would be superior to a wood core in that it would not be susceptible to rot if moisture got under the teak planking and then migrated down into the subdeck core. I have no idea what sort of non-wood core material might be used. I suppose hard foam could be one. In a high-tech composite world honeycomb could be used, too, but I'm not aware of any recreational production boats that use(d) this material.

We much prefer a teak deck to a fiberglass deck and would not own a cruising boat with a fiberglass deck. But it's a totally personal preference.
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Old 04-01-2015, 01:34 AM   #3
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Teak decking on 2000+ Kadey Krogen 39

I believe the issues with teak decking had been resolved by 2000 for the Krogens in which you are interested. I would suggest you ask Krogen about the methods that were used. Dennis Lawrence in the Seattle office is quite knowledgeable and I am sure there are knowledgeable people in the Florida office as well. I would add that the teak decks are not structural, with nearly all of the strength coming from the FRP decking.

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Old 04-01-2015, 01:48 AM   #4
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A surprise discovery foam cored deck saved me $$ when I renewed my decks.
There is an emerging trend I noticed on Europa style boats to replace teak with teak in the covered areas, and non slip painted fibreglass for the unprotected bow area. The bow needs 2 layers of f/glass to replace the teak stiffness effect. I did it, looks fine, but I had a good point at which to change finish.
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Can't help you much with 2 and 3, but the answer to 1 is no. Teak decking on a fiberglass boat is purely cosmetic as well as adding a superior traction surface to the deck.

The teak does add stiffness to the fiberglass/core/fiberglass sandwich subdeck, so if the teak is removed a couple of layers of fiberglass generally need to be put on top of the subdeck to restore the stiffness provided by the teak. This is not a hard and fast rule and will vary with the construction of the specific boat, of course.

Some manufacturers like Grand Banks and Fleming began gluing their teak decks down rather than screwing them down. But if memory serves, this did not start happening until the early-to-mid-2000s or thereabouts, but I could be wrong on that. I have no idea if Krogen ever went to the glued-down teak method.

Regarding question 3, I would think that a non-wood core would be superior to a wood core in that it would not be susceptible to rot if moisture got under the teak planking and then migrated down into the subdeck core. I have no idea what sort of non-wood core material might be used. I suppose hard foam could be one. In a high-tech composite world honeycomb could be used, too, but I'm not aware of any recreational production boats that use(d) this material.

We much prefer a teak deck to a fiberglass deck and would not own a cruising boat with a fiberglass deck. But it's a totally personal preference.
Thanks Marin, for your helpful comments.
We really love the look and feel of weathered teak. I guess there are three levels of risk.
a) Screws through the grp skin into balsa or other wood core.
b) Screws through the grp skin into some form of non-rotting synthetic core.
c) No screws.
Grae.
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:03 AM   #6
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I believe the issues with teak decking had been resolved by 2000 for the Krogens in which you are interested. I would suggest you ask Krogen about the methods that were used. Dennis Lawrence in the Seattle office is quite knowledgeable and I am sure there are knowledgeable people in the Florida office as well. I would add that the teak decks are not structural, with nearly all of the strength coming from the FRP decking.

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Great positive news! Will contact the Krogen people before any potential offer.
Thanks Jim.
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
A surprise discovery foam cored deck saved me $$ when I renewed my decks.
There is an emerging trend I noticed on Europa style boats to replace teak with teak in the covered areas, and non slip painted fibreglass for the unprotected bow area. The bow needs 2 layers of f/glass to replace the teak stiffness effect. I did it, looks fine, but I had a good point at which to change finish.
That may explain the retention of teak on those areas of the Krogen.
Thanks, G
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Old 04-01-2015, 05:24 AM   #8
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FWIW, modern teak decks are pretty much all glued down with very few if any screws used.
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Old 04-01-2015, 05:33 AM   #9
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Glued down teak resolves most of the potential problems that screwed down systems can create but there is one area that will still require diligence. Tank fills may develop leaks as the teak weathers. I suspect not nearly as likely with the glued system but water is persistent so periodic monitoring should be on the to do list.

If water finds its way under the teak anywhere openings cut through the deck beneath it have the potential to leak. No way to inspect between the teak and the deck except to monitor what is happening below decks.
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Old 04-01-2015, 06:24 AM   #10
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The key is always the nature of the core.

All bedding dies after a while and unless renewed , leaks into the core will begin.

In a plywood core the damage gets severe quickly , with closed cell foam no problems .

Easiest is solid glass , where the leak becomes visible (dripping in your bunk) and motivates one to get out fresh goop.
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Old 04-01-2015, 09:03 AM   #11
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FWIW, modern teak decks are pretty much all glued down with very few if any screws used.

I think Capt Bill is right. I'm pretty sure the teak decks on the KK39 are glued down.

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Old 04-01-2015, 10:12 AM   #12
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Thanks bglad and FF,
I guess re-bedding suspect areas soon after taking possession and then periodic monitoring for any sign of deterioration (if visible?).
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Old 04-01-2015, 10:57 AM   #13
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FG has very poor stiffness so it makes my stomach growl to hear of it being used for added stiffness on decks.

I know ... what are the options?
Honeycomb panels?
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:06 PM   #14
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Honeycomb Core and Plascore Boardâ„¢ for Boat Building - Plascore

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Old 04-01-2015, 03:48 PM   #15
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FG has very poor stiffness so it makes my stomach growl to hear of it being used for added stiffness on decks.
It works just fine, Eric. Your old boss acted as an advisor to a fellow who replaced the teak deck on his Island Gypsy on our dock a few years ago. The standard recommendation for this boat is two layers of glass in place of the teak but the owner wanted to be sure so he put four layers on. He did an absolutely superb job, probably better than the manufacturer would have done. It took him a summer and a half to do it, and afterwards he told me that if he'd known how much work it is to do it right he never would have done it.

But the end result is not only perfect to look at, but that deck is so stiff and strong now you could probably land an FA-18 on it. The owner says it's more stiff and solid feeling than when the teak was on it.
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Old 04-01-2015, 04:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
FG has very poor stiffness so it makes my stomach growl to hear of it being used for added stiffness on decks.

I know ... what are the options?
Honeycomb panels?
Ted on O C Diver recently removed his teak decks and just added 2 layers of bi-axial cloth and polyester. He feels it added stiffness. His deck removal project starts with post 48 of ...

My Short Haul Refit
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Old 04-01-2015, 06:14 PM   #17
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The PO of our KK42 removed the teaks on the sidedecks and the foredeck. He filled the screw holes with epoxy, then put in nonskid and painted with awlgrip. Two surveyors (one who did a previous survey that resulted in a failed offer, and one was my surveyor, subject to purchase) questioned the quality of the job and sounded the decks and talked about possible voids. One of the surveyors put a moisture meter on it and found elevated moisture meter readings. My surveyor said "Nothing good can come from those decks!"

So...I brought my shipwright aboard who looked at everything. He questioned the findings of these surveyors. He told me he did not believe they were correct in their findings and questioned how they could effectively "sound the decks" through such a thick layer of nonskid. My shipwright said he would have done things differently that the PO. He would have put a layer of glass on the decks, (rather than go about filling the individual holes) and faired it properly. He examined the KK blueprints and felt the FRP work on the decks, was more than sufficient for structural integrity. The teak would add little additional strength. This gave me sufficient comfort to proceed with the purchase of our boat. Murray felt it would be a $3-5,000 job for him to grind off the existing surface, reglass and paint the decks with awlgrip, but he did not think this would be necessary. They decks are fine. Nothing leaks.


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Old 04-01-2015, 09:11 PM   #18
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The teak overlay on boats like GBs, Flemings, etc. does nothing for the structural strength of the deck. But it does do something for the stiffness of the deck. Remove the teak planking and the subdeck will still be structurally strong but it will most likely be somewhat more flexible. This could--- could--- present problems over time.

This is why the common recommendation when one wants to remove the teak planking for whatever reason is to install at least two layers of fiberglass over the subdeck. This is supposed to restore the stiffness that was lost when the teak was taken up, and the deck will not flex as much.

I have always heard this practice described in terms of deck stiffness, never deck strength.
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Old 04-02-2015, 08:54 PM   #19
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Grae..I sent you a personal message
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