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Old 09-03-2016, 03:54 PM   #21
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anyone have an opinion on the selenes?I know they had some build in the lates nineties,early 2000's,but seemed to have improved,as I am hearing less build issues lately.Anyone want to chime in with more info? thanks
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:55 PM   #22
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Should have read build issues,sorry
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Old 09-03-2016, 04:34 PM   #23
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I think most responses are saying the same thing - it depends more on the builder than where the yard is located. If a naive builder thinks they can send some drawings and specs to a builder and get back a quality boat, they will likely be the next crappy builder we are all talking about. If they closely oversee the project, ensure quality, train people, and inspect every step of the way, they will probably get good boats.

I don't think it's any different from when the fad in software development was to send specs to India and have a thousand programmers work on it for 2 cents an hour. The results were crap. It happens all the time when people who don't really understand a business make decision based on man-hours and loaded labor rates and other things in a spreadsheet. It's the MBA-syndrome.
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:25 PM   #24
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Can't wait to buy a boat from folks that sell wallboard that falls apart and powdered baby milk formula that kills.
And construction and industrial materials certified asbestos free which contain asbestos. And exterior building panels which burn, recreating the towering inferno.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:06 PM   #25
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This wasn't meant to be brand specific, but rather looking 10 to 20 years down the road will the boats built in mainland China suffer maladies similar to the boats built in Taiwan in the early 80s... Or perhaps the problems that exist in the taiwan built boats are not due to construction but rather lack of maintenance by the owner(s).... I personally suspect it's a combination of the two... Some yards have worse practices and the owners of these boats have to work harder to keep the boats up....
At some point, constant maintenance through bad design is not the fault of the owner...you get weary both in energy and checkbook.

Albins supposedly had a good reputation...but after a near total rebuild I would have to say that any owner used to a half way decent boat would give up maintaining a boat designed to fail.

Did some owners keep theirs pristine?

Probably...but compared to a well built boat, they either kept it in a shed out of the sun and rain or worked on it more than used it.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:26 PM   #26
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I wonder if any of these boat builders will come back to the U.S? I don't know much about building boats overseas, but some consumer product lines, and high tech products are returning due to QC issues, rising labor costs, etc. We are helping to create a new middle class in Asia, and their appetite for the finer things in life, and better wages is increasing. This global economy thing has been interesting.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:10 PM   #27
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I wonder if any of these boat builders will come back to the U.S? I don't know much about building boats overseas, but some consumer product lines, and high tech products are returning due to QC issues, rising labor costs, etc. We are helping to create a new middle class in Asia, and their appetite for the finer things in life, and better wages is increasing. This global economy thing has been interesting.
You say "come back to the U.S." but the builders in Asia were really never in the US, even though for many the US was their biggest sales region. Now, Ocean Alexander is still working on having some manufacturing in the US, not owned directly by them, but building for them.

As to whether there will be more builders to start in the US, not many new boat brands coming along. Most of the builders have been in the business for years, even decades. I think building in the US could make a lot of sense, but I don't think it warrants shutting down successful factories elsewhere to move here. There have been several US builders to stop building, at least to stop building recreational boats. That would include Northern, Christensen (still open in a small way), Trinity (doing commercial work), and Burger (doing commercial work). Bertram did move from the US to Italy but that was only because Ferretti sold it to another Italian company. Meanwhile there are some US builders exporting quite a few boats. Hatteras has a large percentage of foreign sales. Westport sells internationally. Viking also. All the SF builders along the east coast export heavily. Then you go to the basics. Sea Ray has a huge presence around the world and the other small boat builders export as well.

I just don't see new builders starting in the US or elsewhere. I can see possibly existing builders adding a new line.
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Old 09-04-2016, 06:55 AM   #28
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I think it really comes down to who builds in China, or more specifically who owns the company, or the relationship between the brand name and builder. If the brand name simply decides to sub-contract to the lowest builder they get what they pay for.

Boats are not simple, nor are boats a production line items where thousands or, millions of identical products are built, and to build quality boats skilled workers from many trades are required.

Therefore to build quality boats, an experienced workforce is required, rigorous quality control, and these all take time to develop. Not that it cannot be done, but I think the effort required to so is often underestimated. And successful boat builders like Nordhavn have been doing it for decades, not years.
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Old 09-05-2016, 12:54 PM   #29
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Just found out recently that nordhavn does not own,or have any financial interest in the actual building process.They are merely distributors of the line.Most are built by a company named Ta Shing,which is under contract for the builds with PAE,but is privately owned.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:20 PM   #30
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My 30 year old Nova sundeck was designed by naval architect Noren, and built in Taiwan. It is a well built hull with solid bottom and sides, with only the deck balsa-cored. How important is it to have a hull designed by a well known naval architect, rather than a committee of "suits" only concerned about profits?
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Old 09-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #31
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In the 70's I had 9 Volvo semi's tractors, a Volvo boat engine and car which had a problem with rust, on 6 month old car ?
I asked the dealer to fix it, getting no help from him I went to the UK Volvo distributor and got the same blank wall.
I gave them an option, fix the car or Volvo products will go, they actually laughed it off as a joke.
Over the next 18 months I traded them all away until all they were gone and wouldn't let the salesman back onto the premises and wouldn't touch anything Volvo with a 10 foot barge pole.
I've heard from Volvo users about engine electronics breaking down while out at sea and the exorbitant spares and service charges and I wonder why people still buy them ?
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Old 09-05-2016, 03:37 PM   #32
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In my case it was ignorance...never thinkin' any reputable diesel engine manufacturer would sell a product and not back it up with a supply of replacement parts. Was I ever wrong.
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Old 09-05-2016, 04:55 PM   #33
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Greetings,
I doubt very much that ANY multiple/mass produced boats are put into production simply on the word of "suits". As for the naval architect being "well known"...
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Old 09-06-2016, 05:26 AM   #34
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Boat building will come back to the USA when we get productivity high enough to reduce the need for skilled touch labor.

This will require a change in what is required in hull building , systems engineering and what a "good " interior looks like.

Materials make up a good portion of the final bill , while crude oil is down 3/4 from its high , resin cost has barely dropped.

Would you buy a new boat with a factory re-manufactured engine / tranny to save 1/2 the power cost?

With GRP boats that were well built still here after 40-50 years , purchasing a better built boat and refreshing it will be cheaper in the near future.

Good hunting.
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:16 AM   #35
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...Would you buy a new boat with a factory re-manufactured engine / tranny to save 1/2 the power cost?...
My understanding is that most engine manufacturers will not sign off on a reman engine in a new build. I believe it has something to do with meeting emissions standards but I'm not sure if that is a complete picture of the issue...

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Old 09-06-2016, 09:40 AM   #36
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Once again a statement about boat building coming back to the US. It's never left. They type boats being talked about coming back, were never here. Many boats are built in the US. The largest boat manufacturer in the world is in the US. SF building is dominated by the US, nearly the exclusive domain of the US. One of the largest yacht builders in the world is in the US.

While talking boat building, Brunswick's marine segment is over $3.3 billion in size. They employee over 10,000 people. Approximately 1/3 of their sales are exports out of the US.

As to larger boats, well Westport, Viking, Hatteras. Three brands that have always been in the US and aren't headed anywhere else.

As to non-US building, far more boats are built in Europe than in Asia. Megayachts in The Netherlands and Germany. Italy being the leading country for boats in the 40-150' range with the UK second.

We forget that in looking at trawler type boats, we're looking at a very small segment of the market, so let's not judge the market based on it. Then in that market, the leading builders are those like Nordhavn and KK. They never built in the US. They were started as Asian builders.

Please stop the talk about boat building coming back to the US. It never left. The presumption it did is just so false.
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:42 AM   #37
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My understanding is that most engine manufacturers will not sign off on a reman engine in a new build. I believe it has something to do with meeting emissions standards but I'm not sure if that is a complete picture of the issue...

Bruce
And to the question, no, I would not put a remanufactured engine in a new boat. Far more likely to take an old boat and put a new engine in. How many people buy new cars with remanufactured engines? It's totally illogical.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:07 AM   #38
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Just found out recently that nordhavn does not own,or have any financial interest in the actual building process.They are merely distributors of the line.Most are built by a company named Ta Shing,which is under contract for the builds with PAE,but is privately owned.
Clearly you have been talking to a salesman from a competing brand, and I can guess which one....

What you have said is kinda right in a few ways, but at the same time quite misleading, so an effective salesman's line.

Nordhavn uses two yards to build their boats; Ta Shing and South Coast. Both originated in Taiwan, and about 10 years ago South Coast moved to Xiamen China. Both yards build exclusively for Nordhavn, and have done so for 30+ years. Nordhavn does not have a financial interest in either yard. This is not an uncommon arrangement - not by any stretch. Actually, just the opposite is true. South Coast has a minority equity/partnership position in Nordhavn.

Each yard builds specific models. Right now, Ta Shing builds the 64 through 78, plus the M56 motor sailor. South Coast builds the 40 - 63, and the 86-120, plus the new CP59. All the boats are 100% designed and specified by Nordhavn. Nordhavn designs, the ship yards build. It's where Apple got the "designed in California, assembled in China" idea.

And Nordhavn is very, very involved in the build process and definitely has a financial stake in each build. Each model has a project manager who oversees builds of that model. The guy who managed our build was in China at least once a month, inspecting boats, working issues, etc. Plus, Nordhavn buys and supplies a significant portion of the equipment for the builds, shipping over a continuous flow of containers.

The bottom line is that it's a closely entwined build by closely entwined companies with closely aligned goals. Calling Nordhavn a distributor would be like calling Apple a Distributor of phones and computers built by Foxcon.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:14 AM   #39
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The bottom line is that it's a closely entwined build by closely entwined companies with closely aligned goals. Calling Nordhavn a distributor would be like calling Apple a Distributor of phones and computers built by Foxcon.
Actually worse as with Nordhavn, the arrangement is what is referred to as a Captive Manufacturer. This is a common arrangement. It's done often by US companies manufacturing in Central and South America where having local ownership of the manufacturing facility is important.

Apple doesn't have a captive situation with Foxconn, but still enough of an interdependent relationship to manage production.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:22 AM   #40
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I wasn't trying to imply that the design,overseeing,and quality control is not extensively supervised by nordhavn,sorry if I gave that misconception.I was simply replying to Marcoh post concerning the statement above controlling a quality workforce,which would be Ta Shing,or Southcoasts responsibility,not nordhavn's
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