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Old 04-19-2014, 09:39 AM   #1
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Are Symbol yachts good passage makers?

I am currently looking at a 2011 Symbol 48' classic pilothouse. There happens to be one for sale in Sydney. Passage makers are exceedingly expensive and Symbol seems to be more in a lower price bracket. Can any one shed light on Symbol as a passage maker? I would be grateful for any feedback.
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:14 AM   #2
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Well, I did a search on Yachtworld and all I could find in that year range was a new build from a Rhode Island dealer (I searched world wide). It does look nice and the bulbous bow definitely indicates an efficient displacement hull.

The listing did say that 250 hp Cummins engines were standard. That is too big for pure displacement cruising. It also talked about John Deere engines and a pair of 4 cylinder 4045s would be ideal.

What engines does the boat you are considering have?

With smallish engines, that boat will require about 80-100 hp to go hull speed and maybe 50 to go a knot or two less- say 7.5 kts. At 50 hp it will burn about 3 gph for both engines so with 900 gallons of fuel on board it should have a range of 2000 NM.

I can't tell anything about the build quality, but the basic design looks good- somewhat like a Flemming but with a displacement hull.

David
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:04 AM   #3
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As Dave Marchand asks, engines? Also to be said, like OA, Symbol put many types of PH on different hulls, is the vessel you are considering a full or semi displacement hull? Stabilized?

A 48 to 50 DeFever would be a good comparison in many respects.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:03 PM   #4
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Thank you for your interest. It has a hard chine hull and full-length keel. It has midship bilge keels and a bulbous bow. It has twin cummins 6BTA5.9M1 (270hp@2600RPM) engines and apparently at 1400RPM does 7knots and 1800 does 8.6 knots and at 2400 does 11.4Kn. I can't answer as to wether it is semi or true displacement hull but it also has trim tabs.
It also only holds 400 gallons of diesel on the info from the broker but the yachtworld (2014 Symbol 48 Classic Pilothouse (New Model) Power New and Used Boats) info for the same boat says 900 USG. I'll have to quiz the broker.
My plan is to cruise to New Caledonia and the surrounding islands from Sydney so I do need reasonable range.
Thank you both for your help
Ilan
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:14 AM   #5
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The hull shape you describe sounds like a bastardization: bulbous bow to improve waterline length and low speed hydrodynamics (ie displacement hull) and a hard chine, flat deadrise (the angle the two sides of the hull make at the transom) semi-displacement hull. The only way to know is to post some pictures of the boat out of the water.

If it is a semi-displacement hull with only 400 gallons of fuel, it won't have anywhere near the range I described in my first post- maybe 500-750 NM. Semi-displacement hulls use almost twice the fuel as a true displacement hull at low speeds.

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Old 04-20-2014, 08:55 AM   #6
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Have you seen the vessel? Is it US or Australia based? How many hours on vessel? The engines sound OK, you should be able to run them all day and night at 1500 or so RPM for good fuel economy. Are they sea water after cooled?

I've been on several larger Symbols and they have a good following. But I'm with Dave, the hull description sounds strange in the brochure. What other vessels are you contemplating? And what price range?
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:01 AM   #7
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Thank you again. The vessel is in Sydney harbor close to where I live. There are 130 hrs on the engines and it was brought out to be sold new in 2011, but has not yet been sold. It has no electronics and they want $795000 AUD but I can only afford half of that. I have not made an offer yet.
I have had a 1996 Sunseeker portofino 400 for many years but have been seriously looking at trawlers as I am approaching retirement age. There is a 2000 62 nordhavn for sale in Sydney but they want crazy money. When I saw relatively new engines (on the symbol) that I can trust I thought this might suit me. I just haven't worked out if it will make a good passage maker. It has no stabilizers so I may have to enquire into gyros. There a bunch of trawler like boats here but most are older than 1990 with lots of hours on the engines and all around the $350000 mark.
I longingly look at boats in the US but the cost of freight plus taxes is prohibitive. This Symbol 48 holds 2850 Litres Fuel plus 535 Litres in a Cruise Tank. That makes 894 USG. It has wet exhausts. I have not yet seen the boat out of the water but within the next few weeks I will make an offer and if I am close I will get a survey and post pictures of the hull out of the water.
What suggestions do you have re other makes or the things I should look out re this boat.
Thank you
Ilan
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:20 AM   #8
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We looked at a 2003 Symbol around a 48 here in the states and were somewhat disappointed. We liked the vessel and layout but the one we looked at had alot of spider cracks in the gelcoat throughout the vessel. It may have just been a bad batch of gelcoat but it really turned us off.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:50 AM   #9
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>I longingly look at boats in the US but the cost of freight plus taxes is prohibitive<

If you keep looking at hard chine fast ,no range boats you will need a freight delivery.

Find a genuine passagemaker , one in a hundred built for ocean crossing from the keel up and a self delivery would just be time and fuel.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:51 AM   #10
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Friends of ours have a 48 foot symbol. We have a Bayliner 4788. Similar layouts, ours has more interior room. Our exterior gel coat is beautiful and straight. Their's is wavy. Very poor exterior finish IMO. Yes, and I am comparing it to a Bayliner. Interior fit and finish is comparable.

I have no clue as to the range or seaworthiness of either vessel. My boat holds 440 gallons of diesel and can get over 1.2 nautical mpg. So my range is around 500 miles if I am fearless, which I am not! Cummins 330 engines. There are a number of 4788s in Australia. Check them out. Properly maintained, they are fine boats.
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Old 04-24-2014, 03:15 AM   #11
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From what I've seen & read they defininitely are a semi-displacement hull. They do a few modifications to the Classic models and have a "Long Range Classic Pilothouse" model which has slightly larger tanks, bulbous bow, added bilge keels, and extra ballast etc, but I was under the impression these were all fitted with a single Cummins. They list the range of up to 3000nm @ 5 knots.
You can find a spec sheet for them here.
SYMBOLYACHTS.COM
Click on "News/Events" then "News & Announcements" and you'll find:
Symbol 48', Long Range Classic Pilothouse
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:11 AM   #12
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That vessel looks very nice, in fact I would kill for it (almost), but I don't see any evidence of a bulbous bow there, in the specs or the water flow in front of the bow in moving shots - which is good in my view, as I don't favour that kind of bow in our kind of boating.
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Old 04-24-2014, 07:40 AM   #13
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Symbol makes 2 48' classics, one with a bulbous bow, single engine and 900 gallons of fuel and one without the bulbous bow, twin engines and less fuel capacity. Which one are you looking at?

As to semi-displacement hulls, that term is really a misnomer in my opinion. A hull either is or it isn't.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:14 AM   #14
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Big engines and a small fuel capacity does not make a passage maker.
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:16 AM   #15
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Spec sheet for single engine model:

Symbol 48’ Long Range Classic Pilothouse

Principal Dimensions,
L.O.A (W/Swim platform): 52'-3" (15.93 M)
L.O.A. of hull (To ISO 8666): 48’-5” ( 14.75 M)
Length at Waterline (LWL): 44’-9 1/2” ( 13.65 M)
Beam (Molded): 15’-10” ( 4.83 M)
Draft (Full load): 5’-10” ( 1.78 M)

Displacement, Light load: 47,850 LB ( 21,720 Kgs)
Half load: 52,300 LB ( 23,750 Kgs)
Full loadL: 56,800 LB ( 25,780 Kgs)

Ballast (Single Engine Configuration): 1,870 LB ( 850 Kgs)
Fuel Capacity: 900 USG
Water Capacity: 250 USG
Holding Tank Capacity: 50 USG

Bridge Clearance (with Radar Arch or Mast down): 16.8 ft ( 5.13 M)

Standard Power,
Single Main Engine: Cummins 270B; 270HP@2600RPM; Gear Ratio: 2.88:1
Est. Top Speed: 10 KTS Est. Cruising Speed: 8.5 KTS

Wing Engine: Yanmar 50HP (Optional)

Hydrostatic Data,
A/B Ratio (full load): 2.2
S/L Ratio (top speed): 1.5
S/L Ratio (cruising speed): 1.27
D/L Ratio (full load): 283
Cb (block coefficient): 0.3
Cp (prismatic coefficient): 0.695
Cm (midship section coefficient): 0.4
Cwp (waterplane coefficient): 0.8

Range:
5 knots: 3,000 Nautical Miles
6 knots: 2,500 Nautical Miles
8.5 knots: 1,800 Nautical Miles
9 knots: 1,350 Nautical Miles

Note: Calculated with a 10% reserve. Ranges are approximate.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:19 AM   #16
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Unfortunately I have personally had a very bad experience with the Symbol Dealer in Australia, I believe I am no orphan. I strongly advise you to verify and check everything you are told, I understand the dealer owns this boat and was the last boat he imported some years ago and has been trying to sell it ever since.

The designer Jack Sarin is in my opinion an excellent designer, honest and ethical. I would in no way offer the same endorsement to anyone else whom I have personally dealt with at Symbol Yachts. I would advise you to contact Sarin direct to see exactly what involvement he had in the design and control of the manufacture, this may be interesting!! Your posts and others in my opinion indicates confusion as to the specifications of the boat, I am not surprised.

I have previously posted in other forums and posted a website about my experience with Symbol Yachts and the Australian Dealer as a warning to others. I did not renew the website a couple of years ago, it was time to move on for me.

If you are told anything by Symbol or their Australian dealer ( i believe Symbol may no longer exist?) about me or my experience or what they did, ask them to commit it to writing and contact me and forward it too me.

Be very very careful, my experience cost me serious money and grief.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:35 AM   #17
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The quickest way to decide if ant vessel was built for blue water or brown water is to examine the glass in the PH

1/4 or 3/8 glass for an acre its brown water.

1/2 or 3/4 glass with built in heat tapes , you have possibly found a genuine blue water boat.

Look for at least 1000NM range minimum , 3000-4000NM if you want world cruising.

Look for numerous hand holds inside , flying across the width of the PH can be painful.

If there not OEM , its lakes , bays and rivers only.
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