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Old 03-22-2011, 05:16 PM   #21
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
SOMERS wrote:

Don't kid your self *big boats can bounce around like *plastic ducks in a bath tub.

**That ocean out there has no friends

**There were 4 of us on a full displacement Nordhavn 47 , we went miles off shore *to pump the bilges , on the return trip we were headed down 6 ft seas towards the out flowing Lucie river inlet in Florida , *the boat was bouncing all over the ocean,*an airline pilot had the helm, *the boat broached, *the pilot over corrected the helm, *the boat spun round like a top, i was thrown across the pilot *house and headed for the door , the coffee maker in the galley flew across the main salon,and the coffee table flipped up side down.

**Be care full what you pray for.
*
*
Donald, the St. Lucie inlet is a nasty one.* We only use it if in fairly moderate conditions.* It is shallow, shoally, and you have to make a turn to run into it and after getting past the bar.* Coming in with a sea against the tide is a recipe for some rough stuff.* A fast planing boat can catch a wave and ride the back of it in.* A displacement boat takes a really experienced hand on the wheel and throttle.* This is where a drogue could come in handy.* There has been more than one boat lost on the jetty rocks.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:13 PM   #22
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switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Hi Don.
What is did not say was that the airline pilot *turned the wheel " the wrong way" causing the boat to go into a full broach.

*I have been close to that in sailboat at night on a delivery from Miami to Bermuda we were trucking along at *11 kts with two of us on the tiller.

*We were screaming on a following sea *we even has a car tire to use ad a drogue but did not use it *, the worst thing in a sailboat is having a green one come over the stern if you are going to slow.
*

** *You *have a fast boat and therefore can keep on the *following wave.

*I hope that i will never get in the same situation with my barge.

**St Lucie *fl is not nice.

*Don i have stories to tell that will blow the lid off.
That ocean out there has no friends.

*No body is going to sleep tonight .*

Donald



-- Edited by SOMERS on Tuesday 22nd of March 2011 06:20:29 PM
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:30 PM   #23
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
SOMERS wrote:

Hi Don.
What is did not say was that the airline pilot *turned the wheel " the wrong way" causing the boat to go into a full broach.

*I have been close to that in sailboat at night on a delivery from Miami to Bermuda we were trucking along at *11 kts with two of us on the tiller.

*We were screaming on a following sea *we even has a car tire to use ad a drogue but did not use it *, the worst thing in a sailboat is having a green one come over the stern if you are going to slow.
*

** *You *have a fast boat and therefore can keep on the *following wave.

*I hope that i will never get in the same situation with my barge.

**St Lucie *fl is not nice.

*Don i have stories to tell that will blow the lid off.
That ocean out there has no friends.

*No body is going to sleep tonight .*

Donald



-- Edited by SOMERS on Tuesday 22nd of March 2011 06:20:29 PM
Donald, right you are.* Respect the ocean because it is no respecter of persons or things.

This may seem as a side discussion, but I think it is very relevant to the subject at hand.* There are great differences in displacement and semi displacement hulls to a planing hull.* All these differences should be taken into consideration when buying a boat.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:03 PM   #24
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Kevin:
Don is right about the sea being unmerciful, but to answer your question in general terms, the trawler style boat is typically a more stable platform than an express cruiser with a deep V planning hull.* However, one can get too used to the comfortable ride, and be unpleasantly reminded that they are on a boat underway.* I always*caution Phyl to use the "one hand for the boat" rule when moving about.* If I'm running from the upper helm, I don't always have a chance to warn those below that a large wave is coming or a maneuver is required to avoid something.
Every boat has a purpose, some are better than others for their intended purpose, but the ocean is mighty big regardless of what pleasure craft you're on.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:36 AM   #25
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

'the coffee maker in the galley flew across the main salon,and the coffee table flipped up side down.'

Sounds like the boat was not RFS (ready for sea) a common problem when folks "just go for a ride" to void the waste tanks.

"i was thrown across the pilot house and headed for the door ,"

Some of these high volume boats lack hand holds , that would intrude on the vastness.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:22 PM   #26
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

I think that we are trying to guide Ksansers who i believe has previously owned a large boat i could be guilty of digressing from the requested topic .

We are all competent captains many have hundreds of miles under our belts and you will have much to learn from us.
However the final choice of boat rest entirely on your shoulders.
Good Luck .
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:51 PM   #27
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
markpierce wrote:Pineapple Girl wrote:
I've posted this photo before... everyone was kicked back, enjoying the journey as we headed to a brunch event.*

Jennifer, did your party eventually*"woof" it up and have a "howling" good time (re: the CPYC burgee).

*
LOL brunch was at OPYC so I am sure you can come up with some more puns.

*
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:24 PM   #28
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
SOMERS wrote:

Hi Don.
What is did not say was that the airline pilot *turned the wheel " the wrong way" causing the boat to go into a full broach.

*I have been close to that in sailboat at night on a delivery from Miami to Bermuda we were trucking along at *11 kts with two of us on the tiller.

*We were screaming on a following sea *we even has a car tire to use ad a drogue but did not use it *, the worst thing in a sailboat is having a green one come over the stern if you are going to slow.
*

** *You *have a fast boat and therefore can keep on the *following wave.

*I hope that i will never get in the same situation with my barge.

**St Lucie *fl is not nice.

*Don i have stories to tell that will blow the lid off.
That ocean out there has no friends.

*No body is going to sleep tonight .*

Donald
*

I Agree - The Sea IS Its Own BOSS!
Open water or even relatively closed water locations can suddenly become extremely treacherous, even deadly, when influenced by unusual or unanticipated weather, tide, current or their many combinations that can result in severe sea conditions.* My guide-statement that I live by regarding any boat I captain, its crew and the ongoing/altering sea conditions... When You Least Expect It, Expect It... The only constant is change!* And, I try to never place the boat, me or crew in an untenable position we simply cant escape from.* In other words... If its gonna become too ****ty, stay moored in the city! *Theres always good weather coming my way for further*voyage and more*play!!*

Regarding Tollycraft boats I mentioned on 2<sup>nd</sup> page of this thread: When I said... They are built well, handle fine in seas and cruise fairly economically at hull speed or just below. guess I should have qualified the word seas in this part of the sentence, regarding*... handle fine in seas....* I will add a bit here: Every boat has its own particularities regarding its sea handling capabilities, and every captain has their own prowess regarding ability to maximize each boats capabilities... so... the seas I refer to are meant to represent sea conditions that all portions of the voyages contingent can handle!*

On another note: In addition to sea conditions that could/might/will place big handling-obstacles in front of any boats captain and crew... Misuse of right of way is my pet peeve!* Too many boating accidents occur because the boat operators (captains) either do not understand or maybe do not adhere to right of way laws of the sea. *The following rule of thumb is one of my favorites that pop taught me during decades of New England voyages.* BTW, immediately after quoting the following, during his captain maneuvers to avoid a mishap while allowing an idiot to*misuse right of way... hed shake his fist at the transgressor, while yelling at top of his lungs - - > YOU DAM STUPID SOB, YOUR NO CAPTAIN AND SHOULDNT BE ALLOWER ON THE WATER!!*

So... heres my favorite rule of thumb on the water, Thanks Dad!! Here lies the body of one Michael O Day.* He died defending his right of way.* He was right, dead right, as he sailed along; but hes just as dead as if he were wrong!* I repeat this while too often encountering errant right of way boat operators.*

Thoughtful boat handling helps make happy boating! - Art

*
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:04 PM   #29
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Thanks everybody for all the help and advice!

I've thought about this quite a bit and the boat I'm looking to move to is going to be a full displacement, soft chined hull, utilizing either active or passive stabilization.

I've thought about a larger semi displacement hull or a larger planing hull. Actually being a cruiser owner I've thought about these quite a bit. It would actually be easy for me to pick out a larger planing hull boat. The switch in hull form raises many more questions.

Does anybody know of any photos of the Defever 49 hauled? I'm really interested in learning more about that hull.

Thanks again...Kevin
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:12 AM   #30
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Kevin, it is funny that you typed that because that is really what this all boils down to....hullform. A full displacement hull will provide you the best dynamic stability while going displacement speeds. But I will say one thing....that D49 will roll like crazy. The fact that you will be implementing stabilizers will obviously counter that. My suggestion was going to be a semi displacement hull that is able to utilize the hullform for speed. Not for speed's sake, but or stability's sake. The dynamic pressure(lift) against the sides of a SD boat doing speed WILL stabilize the boat. I am talking 12-15 knots here....not 27! And speeds in that range are not alarming nor do you feel the need to "get there"...it is still a relatively relaxing pace. A properly designed SD hull will NOT pound because there are no flat sections for the water to impact except the very stern....and I hope your stern is not leaving the surface of the water....if it is, you have bigger problems. Anyway, a boat like a Nordic Tug 42 should have wonderfully comfortable motion doing speeds in the SD range if you needed to do that for stability....ie a beam sea. And I am sure it would do fine at displacement speeds should the conditions allow.

And like someone said, the D49 appears HUGE on the outside but doesn't seem as big on the inside. I guess you are giving a lot of room to the large side decks(a la GB Europa). Anyway, I used to know someone with a D49 and like the boat very much. But he did say the thing rolled like crazy. And if you look at how tall they are, that will give you a good idea. ANyway, just my thoughts reading through these posts....

Welcome aboard!!!
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:00 PM   #31
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Not flat enough I am afraid. I don't think that is flat enough to be considered SD...especially if that curve increases rapidly going forward.
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #32
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

What does the shape of this*stern tell you?
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:19 PM   #33
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Mark, if you went just by the line at the stern, you could certainly make an argument for a SD hull. But I can see beyond that and can tell that the bilge deepens/bulges ahead of the stern....which is what I suspect with the DF49.
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:37 PM   #34
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Baker.* Yeah it drops,*by over three feet.

*

*
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:41 PM   #35
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switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
DavidM wrote:
Let me offer my two cents here.

Semi dsiplacement hulls are typically hard chined flat deadrise (the angle at the transom) hulls. This hull form is a little less efficient than a pure round bottom at displacement speeds. It won't roll as much but sometimes its motion isn't as comfortable as a round bottom hull due to the sharp "snap" back and forth. The rounded chine hull is a compromise between the two types- it has less snap, but it takes more power to push it past displacment speeds due to the lack of planing area because of the rounded chines.

The round bottom displacement hull can be very rolly in heavy seas, so the OP's interest in active stabilization is a reasonable choice. I wouldn't consider passive stabilization- I assume he means paravanes, because they are difficult to deploy and would only make sense on a long offshore passage.

A picture of the D49's hull form is attached, taken from a current Yachtworld listing of an 82 model located in Herrington Harbor. It is a hard chine, flattish deadrise hull.

David
*Thanks very much for posting that photo.

I wonder what the roll period of that hull is ???

Just from the photo, (with no other data) I was hoping that the hull form was a little softerr towards the after sectionss... more like for example a Willard, Krogen, or Nordhavn hull.

This desire comes directly from Voyaging Under Power, and the extensive data that was presented regarding hull form, stability, and of course stabilization.

For example I read that using active stabilization the Nordhavn 46 would roll at around 5 degrees in "moderate" sea states, and that was with a easy motion without snap to it. Thats the goal here.

Some interesting information regarding the Hattaras 48 LRC. I found a test of that hull in a old magazine that indicated that the roll period was 4.5 seconds, and the d/l ration was 380. Comparing that against the Nordhavn* 46 and at least on paper they are pretty close to each other. I know that there are other big differences between the Hatteras LRC and the Nordhavn, but the hull dynamics are close.

*


-- Edited by ksanders on Thursday 24th of March 2011 07:44:27 PM
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:25 PM   #36
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

There is a line that tells almost the whole story about how FD, SD or planing a hull is. It's called the quarter beam buttock line. The QBBL starts near mid-ship on the bottom and runs aft to the transom. It is midway between the chine and the keel. There is the outbd stbd qtr, the inbd stbd qtr, the port inbd qtr and the outbd port qtr. In a FD transom boat (like Marks) the QBBL is rather steep and the transom is out of the water. In a planing hull the QBBL is flat or very close to it. Marks QBBL is not as curved as most FD hulls but the angle is high and that makes the Coot a serious and full full disp hull. If his transom was 6" submerged the QBBL would be straighter but more importantly far less steep. That would make the Coot a semi-disp hull. And of course if the coot had a constant dead rise hull aft with a straight and flat QBBL it would then be a planing hull. There are FD hulls that have slightly submersed transoms but they all have steep QBBLs. Look back at the DeFever picture. See that the chine is totally straight aft. That would suggest a planing hull but see that the keel line is quite steep and would'nt allow planing speeds even if disp was low enough. Since the keel line is steep and the QBBL is moderate we have a SD hull**** ...not a FD. Most all trawler hulls are very simillar to the DeFever and they too are SD hulls. Only Diesel Ducks, Willards, Fishers and a very few others are actually FD. And the reason for this populairity is the stiffness of a wide hard chine hull. A 29' Ranger will feel MUCH more stable than a 30' Willard but the Ranger is less stable and will capsize more easily. And a SD trawler will need about twice as much power as a FD trawler. Also a narrow round bilge hull will hardly work the paravanes at all whereas a wide hard chine hull will feed heavy loads through the paravane rigging. Round bilge FD hulls are better suited for paravane stabilizers and stand to gain more from thier use.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:33 AM   #37
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Interesting ,

The latest issue of Pro Boa Builder has an article that discusses resistance in the displacement mode of plaining and semi plaining hulls.

Conclusion the TRUE displacement hull (like a sailboat hull) has 50% LESS resistance than the plaining hull at displacement speeds.

So the semi displacement folks that have huge engines and SD underwater shapes are paying over 100% more to move the boat 99.9% of the time.Big over sized engines cost efficiency by the gallon too.


That sure is expensive "insurance" for the chance to "beat the storm" sometime in the boats lifetime!
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:33 AM   #38
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

I agree the full displacement hull moves thru the water with the least horsepower.

The fact is there are not to many affordable true displacement trawlers in the 35-45 range.* There are lots of* sailboats available that would work nicely as a trawler alternative. A covered center cockpit could be a nice pilothouse, The ballast keel gives roll over protection, and roller furling makes adding sail while motoring easy to do.The sail will lower your fuel use and prevent rolling very effectively. If everything mechanical fails the sails can get you to safety.

So whats missing?* Bright interiors, large engine spaces,speed above hull speed,easy bridge clearing.

The Bristol 41.1, 43.5 and Pearson 365, 424 are good examples.

Lots of small sailboats have crossed oceans safely.* JohnP
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:45 AM   #39
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

Quote:
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The fact is there are not to many affordable true displacement trawlers in the 35-45 range.** JohnP
*That sure is correct.

What I've found*in reasonable priced production vessels is limited to:

Willard 40, Krogen 42, Nordhavn 40, 46, and The Hatteras LRC (from the data I've found)

To be honest, although I really like the Nordhavn models they are still priced above where I was considering. A Nordhavn 46, Salvation II was listed in Seattle for $360. The boat probably sold for around $300. I'm going to top out at $250 including catching up on any defered maintenance, and fitting out costs.

In non production vessels the options are greater, but the actual numbers of boats available are much smaller and the quality is often dependent on the skills of*an individual builder. The non production boats are really hit and miss even from a design standpoint unless they used a design from a reputable naval architect.

I would seriously consider a steel hull boat, and might just go that route if I find one that meets my criteria. There is for sale right now a Nelville 39 that is interesting.
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:42 AM   #40
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RE: switching to a trawler from a cruiser

ksanders,

The Nelville 39 seems to be a wonderful boat. See it in VUP. Rob Hays (on TF) may have his Willard 40 for sale and the Krogen 42 is hard to beat. If you look at steel get a surveyor that specializes in steel. Perhaps you could find a Coot for sale? And you mention the Nordhavn 46**** ....my favorite boat. Good thing they are WAY out of my price range or I'd be buy'in one of those.

And FF,

Remember*** ...I was going to convert a sail boat to a trawler.
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