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Old 12-26-2012, 04:42 PM   #21
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10 Questions to ask your surveyor
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:17 PM   #22
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"Transport Canada, USCG, CCG and CE standards are currently being harmonized with ABYC standards and Transport Canada has actually made some of these standards law in Canada with more being added every year. Canadian Regulations now make so many referals and deferrals to ABYC that one simply cannot survey a vessel to Transport Canada Small vessel Construction Standards without being a member of ABYC® and purchasing their standards and annual updates."


What an incredible shower of horsepucky! I can't recally the last time I read such self-serving bull manure outside an Enron public relations press release.

Of course Transport Canada and the USCG incorporate ABYC standards as well as NFPA, IACS, ASME, and a few others since it saves time and resources reinventing the wheel. It sure as hell doesn't mean that a toyboat surveyor needs to be member of any of those associations (few are qualified or eligible in any event) but publishing that vomitus quoted above is really going a bit far just to blow smoke at the boating public.

I suggest the interested reader follow the TC links to read just how TC accepted a lower ABYC standard as an economical expedient to allow importation of US built boats. Introduction - Transport Canada

Caveat Emptor folks, beware hammer wielding con artists who tell you only they can provide the assurance you believe you are paying for.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bobofthenorth View Post
On a 30 year old boat if you can't do the survey yourself then you aren't ready to buy anything. You may want to hire a surveyor(s) to assist you with your own research but I repeat - if you can't do the survey yourself then you aren't ready to buy.
You're not serious are you? Many, perhaps the majority of boaters have little interest or knowlege of the internal workings of a boat, they just want to use one and pay others to keep it in good repair.

Kind of like owning and driving a car.

To the OP - call some of the marinas in the area where the boat is. Get their recommendations on a qualified surveyor. Ask the surveyor for refferences.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:34 PM   #24
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............. I seriously doubt that any insurance company is going to take my "word" for it that the boat is good; so......like most folks getting ready to spend well over $100K on a boat...they get a professional documented survey to help make an informed decision on a purchase as well as to satisy insurance requirements.
I don't know if I'm "special" or not, but my insurance company said nothing about a survey and I insured it for half again more than what you're talking about.

I got a survey by and individual recommended by the broker. Not because he was recommended by the broker, but because of his professional membership and recommendations by others in the area. And I got it to be sure I was buying a sound boat, not something that had been hacked by a previous owner.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
"Transport Canada, USCG, CCG and CE standards are currently being harmonized with ABYC standards and Transport Canada has actually made some of these standards law in Canada with more being added every year. Canadian Regulations now make so many referals and deferrals to ABYC that one simply cannot survey a vessel to Transport Canada Small vessel Construction Standards without being a member of ABYC® and purchasing their standards and annual updates."


What an incredible shower of horsepucky! I can't recally the last time I read such self-serving bull manure outside an Enron public relations press release.

Of course Transport Canada and the USCG incorporate ABYC standards as well as NFPA, IACS, ASME, and a few others since it saves time and resources reinventing the wheel. It sure as hell doesn't mean that a toyboat surveyor needs to be member of any of those associations (few are qualified or eligible in any event) but publishing that vomitus quoted above is really going a bit far just to blow smoke at the boating public.

I suggest the interested reader follow the TC links to read just how TC accepted a lower ABYC standard as an economical expedient to allow importation of US built boats. Introduction - Transport Canada

Caveat Emptor folks, beware hammer wielding con artists who tell you only they can provide the assurance you believe you are paying for.
A lucid disputation of fact as expected.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:45 PM   #26
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"Transport Canada, USCG, CCG and CE standards are currently being harmonized with ABYC standards and Transport Canada has actually made some of these standards law in Canada with more being added every year. Canadian Regulations now make so many referals and deferrals to ABYC that one simply cannot survey a vessel to Transport Canada Small vessel Construction Standards without being a member of ABYC® and purchasing their standards and annual updates."


What an incredible shower of horsepucky! I can't recally the last time I read such self-serving bull manure outside an Enron public relations press release.

Of course Transport Canada and the USCG incorporate ABYC standards as well as NFPA, IACS, ASME, and a few others since it saves time and resources reinventing the wheel. It sure as hell doesn't mean that a toyboat surveyor needs to be member of any of those associations (few are qualified or eligible in any event) but publishing that vomitus quoted above is really going a bit far just to blow smoke at the boating public.

I suggest the interested reader follow the TC links to read just how TC accepted a lower ABYC standard as an economical expedient to allow importation of US built boats. Introduction - Transport Canada

Caveat Emptor folks, beware hammer wielding con artists who tell you only they can provide the assurance you believe you are paying for.

Quite right, RickB. By the way, this sort of self serving post looks suspiciously like marketing material.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #27
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Quite right, RickB. This crap is over the top.

Sorry guys, I just don't understand the vitriol. I simply say that since TP1332E makes so many references to ABYC that you cannot understand it without an understanding of ABYC. I genuinely do not understand your violent reaction to this statement.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:13 PM   #28
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I simply say that since TP1332E makes so many references to ABYC that you cannot understand it without an understanding of ABYC.
Any marine industry professional is quite capable of understanding the letter and intent of the regulations. We don't have to belong to ABYC (though I do for several reasons) and we don't have to be a member of your hammer whacker's club.

Most of us in the business are members of the other organizations mentioned by TC and hold professional licensure to perform the tasks and roles that the toyboat surveyor clubs profess but whose members lack any outside evaluation, standardization, training, or certification to hold themselves out to the public as arbiters of marine safety and construction or maintenance practices.

Don't interpret that as my feeling that you and your ilk are threatening my livelihood because I can assure you that you are not even in the same part of the yachting planet so represent no threat whatsoever. You and your ilk do threaten the recreational boating industry by your lack of quality control and ability to effectively write the rules as you go along.

If you feel like you can come here and promote yourself and your club, then I have the same right to tell the other side of the story ... I do it without the commercial marketing scam though. I have nothing to gain by stating the facts as opposed to the advertising and editorial material you presented.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:18 PM   #29
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You are are not addressing the question but it is obvious you have an axe to grind and reasonable discourse is beyond you, so I will now bow out of this discussion.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:24 PM   #30
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I have always found look for the fussy insurer and then find out what Surveyor they like solves two problems at once
Also I always have my own list of what I want the Surveyor to tell me apart from there standard report
Also if its a wooden boat I like sending a shipwright in to see what needs to be fixed as well that usually makes fascinating reading against the Surveyor
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:59 PM   #31
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I have been around machinery all my life and I have never encountered such an army of charlatans as I did when and since we bought Gray Hawk. The surveyor is just the tip of the iceberg. The good marine professionals are notable because they are so rare. I'm sure there are qualified surveyors out there somewhere but the odds of finding one are infinitesimally low. I'm not sure why I qualified my initial statement by applying it to 30 year old boats. It applies no matter how new or old the boat but maybe on a newer, more valuable boat it would be worthwhile flying in someone you knew was qualified rather than taking your chances with the locals.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #32
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... more valuable boat it would be worthwhile flying in someone you knew was qualified rather than taking your chances with the locals.
I agree with that and your general take on the subject.

In my end of the business, that is precisely what we do when we have to use a surveyor other than a legitimate class or flag surveyor. There are a very few that we use and we fly them all over the world as necessary.

For the most part the independent surveyor is merely a formality for the insurance company and bank as the greatest service they perform is that of inventory taker. We do not under any circumstance rely on them for technical evaluation of condition or maintenance, they are not qualified to do so.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:17 PM   #33
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Survey for insurance and finance aside, and assuming you are a boat vs yacht owner, I agree with BoboftheNorth as it applies to older vessels. I suspect he was making a point with regards to ongoing maintanence issues.

As a "boat" owner, I've hands-on retrofitted a number of old/tired boats. From a time and money perspective, the experience taught me two things; that I don't want to do it again <and> what to look for so I don't have to.

Prior to getting serious (ie, spending money on the purchase process), I spent two days going through my current vessel. I'm sure the broker suspected something when I showed up with a cooler and work clothes. By the time I hired the surveyors, I already knew the condition (except engine operation) and was confident of my purchase decision/offer. I was also able to point out a few items to the surveyor which he did not discover. Mike
Very good points!
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:16 AM   #34
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If you didn't find a surveyor yet I can recommend Hitchcock Marine Services of Essex CT. I believe the owner's name is Buddy and I imagine he would have no problem going to the Cape. He went to Rhode Island for our survey. His # is 860-767-7251. He was thorough, provides a comprehensive written report, and patiently answered my stupid questions.

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Old 12-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #35
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I would suggest calling three other brokers in the area and ask for suggestions for two or three surveyors. If the same name comes up a few times that surveyor has built a reputation. Then interview the surveyors yourself and ask for a sample survey on a similar boat.
I have seen seen a few poor surveyors over the years but I have never seen one who knew less than the buyer. I have met some incredibly knowledgable buyers but never one who knew more in general than any surveyor who was a full member of one of the surveyor associations.
If most buyers only bought boats when they were knowledgable enough to do their own survey then very few boats would be sold, how do you learn enough without owning boats over the years?
It should also be noted that there is a major difference between an insurance survey and a pre-purchase survey. Plus the reccomendations of a recognized surveyor can become negotiating items for adjustments of price or who will pay for repairs found to be needed by the survey.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:07 PM   #36
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Just because a surveyor has a SAMS certificate doesn't necessarily mean he/she is a competent surveyor.
The requirements to become a SAMS surveyor Is to send in 2 completed surveys and pay a fee.
This allows you to be and use the SAMS certification on your shingle.
After time has passed and you pay more fees you move from associate to member.

NAMS is a little better they at least require a few classes.

The point being is Due diligence. Call for references and be sure you are there for the survey.

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Old 12-27-2012, 07:34 PM   #37
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Apologies to any surveyors out there but I would not use a surveyor recommended by a seller.
There may be instances when a particular surveyor has established such a good reputation that everyone in the area connected with boats knows this. There are two such surveyors in the Puget Sound area that I know of. In this case I would not hesitate to use either one of them even if they were recommended by a seller's broker.

Of course you have to do the homework to find out that these surveyors are, in fact, as good as everyone says they are (or already know it from prior experience). In the case of the two I know of in this area they are recommended by many PNW GB owners on the GB forum as well as by many local yards and individual owners, including us now that we've used one of them.

So if there is one or more of these guys around in your area it can make the task of finding an objective surveyor who knows boats backwards and forwards much easier.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:48 PM   #38
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Tucker, what is the difference between a pre purchase inspection and an insurance inspection ?
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:09 PM   #39
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Tucker, what is the difference between a pre purchase inspection and an insurance inspection ?
I'm not Tucker but a pre-purchase survey should be extremely thorough and uncover every problem or potential problem with the boat, big and small, significant or insignificant. An insurance survey should be sufficient to determine the safety and integrity of the vessel to satisfy the sorts of things an insurance company would be concerned with.

The insurance surveys we have had conducted on our boat have cost half or less of what the same surveyor charges for a full-bore survey.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:23 AM   #40
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thanks Marin
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