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Old 12-14-2012, 08:45 PM   #81
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Hendo says;

"LOL it Has nothing to do with blocks being made out of special material. Have a look at a lot of the ski boats. Chevy, ford, Holden etc."

What I was talking about was long before your'e Perkins and probably your time in this world.

And I wasn't talking about silly ski boats.

Hercules, Chris Craft, Red Wing, Lathrop, Universal, Chrysler, Nordberg, Palmer, Kermath and that's right off the top of my head. There were many more. The Lathrop is the only one on my list than wasn't a flathead engine. Many of these engines had a cast iron crankcase and the transmission was built into the aft end of the engine ... not bolted on. So the transmission and engine shared the same space/case. Don't see how they could be from a truck or auto engine. I don't think you've ever seen any of these and you may be right that they may not be cast from a special material but I think they were dedicated marine engines.

LOL yourself and I certainly don't need to be looking at ski boats to learn about marine engines. Ther'e all just car engines aren't they?
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:56 PM   #82
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Eric---- A good friend has a (wood) 26' Richardson cabin cruiser that he and his brother keep in covered moorage on Lake Union. It has been in his family for 50 years now (his dad bought it when my friend was a kid). It is powered by a pair of raw-water cooled, gasoline Graymarine engines. Do you know if these engines were purpose-built as marine engines?
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:38 PM   #83
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Marin I'm not absolutely sure but many of them had the clutch and gears inside the aft end of the crankcase so it's hard to imagine them coming from cars. They could, however buy the crankshaft, rods and pistons from a car manufacturer but the two engines were destined for very different duty cycles and loads. The ones that had a bolt on clutch and gear unit were (in my opinion) more likely to have come from cars or industrial general purpose engines like the Continental that was found in the Kaiser and that car that was made for many years only as a cab .. the Checker.

I was only about 10 when these engines were the power of the day. They were very smooth and did not require rubber engine mounts. They were bolted directly to the heavy wood engine beds.

Marin a twin was unusual in a 26' boat even then. Graymarine was one of the more popular engines then and Grey offered the 6-71 (and perhaps other DDs) so there's one engine that for sure was from industry. But the bulk of the pleasure boat engines were 25 to 145hp. Most were 6cyl. Some 4s and a few straight 8s (usually Chrysler). Almost all were flathead engines that had the flywheel (and starter motors) on the front of the engine. It would seem a dedicated crankshaft would be necessary for that.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:25 PM   #84
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Eric--- I'm pretty sure the boat is 26.' If it isn't, then it's 28.' The engines are four cylinder Graymarines.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:07 AM   #85
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Hendo says;

"LOL it Has nothing to do with blocks being made out of special material. Have a look at a lot of the ski boats. Chevy, ford, Holden etc."

What I was talking about was long before your'e Perkins and probably your time in this world.

And I wasn't talking about silly ski boats.

Hercules, Chris Craft, Red Wing, Lathrop, Universal, Chrysler, Nordberg, Palmer, Kermath and that's right off the top of my head. There were many more. The Lathrop is the only one on my list than wasn't a flathead engine. Many of these engines had a cast iron crankcase and the transmission was built into the aft end of the engine ... not bolted on. So the transmission and engine shared the same space/case. Don't see how they could be from a truck or auto engine. I don't think you've ever seen any of these and you may be right that they may not be cast from a special material but I think they were dedicated marine engines.

LOL yourself and I certainly don't need to be looking at ski boats to learn about marine engines. Ther'e all just car engines aren't they?
*yawn* i do LOL at myself. you must be able to laugh at yourself before others! besides if you had a head like mine you'd wanna have a sense of humour cause theres nothing else going for it!

silly ski boats!. Not heard of that model. Who makes it? They sound like fun.

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Old 12-15-2012, 02:24 AM   #86
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They were made by Silly Marine, Llc.. They're a niche blue water passage-maker manufacturer in Kansas. Sort of a "whatever Nordhavn can do we can do better because we're 'muricans, goddamnit" outfit.

I'm actually surprised Eric has heard of them because Silly Marine's niche in the market is that while they have been building blue-water passage-makers for some time now, they have yet to figure out how to get any of them to water.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:31 AM   #87
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They were made by Silly Marine, Llc.. They're a niche blue water passage-maker manufacturer in Kansas. Sort of a "whatever Nordhavn can do we can do better because we're 'muricans, goddamnit" outfit.

I'm actually surprised Eric has heard of them because Silly Marine's niche in the market is that while they have been building blue-water passage-makers for some time now, they have yet to figure out how to get any of them to water.
Bwahahahahahaha

And here is was thinking eric was lacking for better words. Thanks very much for clearing that up.

ROFL

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Old 12-15-2012, 08:33 AM   #88
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Do you know if these engines were purpose-built as marine engines?
Both Gray Marine and Chryslers were conceived and created as marine engines.

Chrysler had a marine division and even built boats for a while.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:20 AM   #89
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Back when (1950’s to early 60's)... my family had 1948 23' Chris Craft Express trunk cabin w/ straight six 115 hp Chrysler Crown and a 1950 something 32' Johnson Bros. lap-strake, trunk cabin cruiser with Gray Marine. Lap-strake sucks for sleeping in a bay. Slightest ripple provides constant slapping/gurgle sounds on the hull's strakes. If boat's small bay wake hit us the sound was too much to sleep through.
Just sayen!
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:18 PM   #90
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Rick B said:

"Both Gray Marine and Chryslers were conceived and created as marine engines.Chrysler had a marine division and even built boats for a while"

Chrysler is an intersting marine story, starting in the 1920s. As part of the government bailout in the 70s they had to get out of non-core assets which included their outboard, inboard, power boats and sail boats. They built over 4000 boats with Halsey Hereshoff designing some of their sailing vessels.

Their outboard group became Force Marine. I can't recall if their Crusader name was/is part of the great Crusader gas engines today.

My father had a flat head 6 Chrysler Crusader in a power boat. I had a pair of 383 gassers. Chrysler made V8s in the 318, 360, 383 and 440 sizes. These marinized engines are still around with several shops still doing total rebuilds.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:23 PM   #91
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Thanks Rick. I think Phill Fil has one of those Chrysler boats and posted pics of it a day or two ago.

I'd burn 2 or three times as much fuel and need to "blow" the bilge often but other than that I'd probably much prefer the smooth and quiet gas engine over my 4 cyl diesel. In the old days we thought diesels were for trucks and tractors only. Who would want to be in a confined space w one of them noisy and smelly things.

Boating was probably quite nice in a both sound and temperature insulative wood boat. I don't think they knew about lift mufflers then and most inboard boats had very noisy exhausts. Same today I think and I can't believe people put up w all that noise when a lift muffler all but eliminates it.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:32 PM   #92
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Thanks Rick. I think Phill Fil has one of those Chrysler boats and posted pics of it a day or two ago.

I'd burn 2 or three times as much fuel and need to "blow" the bilge often but other than that I'd probably much prefer the smooth and quiet gas engine over my 4 cyl diesel. In the old days we thought diesels were for trucks and tractors only. Who would want to be in a confined space w one of them noisy and smelly things.

Boating was probably quite nice in a both sound and temperature insulative wood boat. I don't think they knew about lift mufflers then and most inboard boats had very noisy exhausts. Same today I think and I can't believe people put up w all that noise when a lift muffler all but eliminates it.
Eric – I agree with the need to be VERY, Very careful for gas fumes with a gasser (any competent Captain with well ventilated and equipped boat can readily facilitate these cautions)... and ... I agree that gas engines are VERY, Very quiet compared to diesels. What I find troublesome is that most diesel owners erroneously believe gasoline engines use 2 to 3 time the fuel as diesel at hull speed or below hull speed rates... that just ain’t so... for planning, semi displacement, and full displacement hulls on boats in the size range up to about 45’. Now, if you get into faster speeds on nearly any boat design or for boats bigger than 45’ the torque from large diesel motors is needed for notable fuel consumption reduction compared to gasser. I believe that if you implanted a small, efficiently designed gas engine in your size boat that although you might experience a smidge more fuel usage than equivalent size diesel the simple, inexpensive maintenance and base cost of the gas engine would off-set fuel costs. And the gas motor’s quietness is priceless - worth a fortune!
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:35 PM   #93
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The boating club we belong to is the oldest one in Bellingham, going back to the early 1920s. There are a number of photos on the walls of the clubhouse that were taken on club cruises in the 20s and 30s. These cruises didn't go long distances, usually just across Bellngham bay to the anchorages on Lummi and Eliza islands. So six to eight miles.

In all cases the boats--- sometimes twenty or thirty--- cruised as a group. Not exactly in formation but all together in a bunch, which is what is depicted in the photos on the walls.

The historian of club has given several presentations on its history. The reason for the "all together" grouping on cruises was two-fold. Most of the boats, he said, were home made or locally made by individual boat builders. They were all powered by the gasoline motors of the day. And apparently, reliability was a somewhat iffy proposition. With all the boats running together there was plenty of help in the event of a breakdown, which according to Paul, were fairly frequent.

The second reason was navigation. You wouldn't think this would be an issue on an eight mile run across a bay, but apparently it could be challenging if the visibility came down. So the lead boat was always one equipped with the "latest" navigation equipment, which judging by the photos was an RDF.

A few of the photos show a USCG boat as part of the flotilla heading across the bay. We were told that the Coast Guard would sometimes accompany cruises like this in the event that a boat developed a major problem.

Different era, that's for sure. But perhaps in some ways more adventurous and more fun.........
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:41 PM   #94
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The boating club we belong to is the oldest one in Bellingham, going back to the early 1920s. There are a number of photos on the walls of the clubhouse that were taken on club cruises in the 20s and 30s. These cruises didn't go long distances, usually just across Bellngham bay to the anchorages on Lummi and Eliza islands. So six to eight miles.

In all cases the boats--- sometimes twenty or thirty--- cruised as a group. Not exactly in formation but all together in a bunch, which is what is depicted in the photos on the walls.

The historian of club has given several presentations on its history. The reason for the "all together" grouping on cruises was two-fold. Most of the boats, he said, were home made or locally made by individual boat builders. They were all powered by the gasoline motors of the day. And apparently, reliability was a somewhat iffy proposition. With all the boats running together there was plenty of help in the event of a breakdown, which according to Paul, were fairly frequent.

The second reason was navigation. You wouldn't think this would be an issue on an eight mile run across a bay, but apparently it could be challenging if the visibility came down. So the lead boat was always one equipped with the "latest" navigation equipment, which judging by the photos was an RDF.

A few of the photos show a USCG boat as part of the flotilla heading across the bay. We were told that the Coast Guard would sometimes accompany cruises like this in the event that a boat developed a major problem.

Different era, that's for sure. But perhaps in some ways more adventurous and more fun.........
Well put conclusion, Marin.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:02 PM   #95
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Art see new thread in power systems.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:25 PM   #96
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Wood boats are stronger, lighter (or both to a lesser degree) quieter, usually easier to repair, better looking, more insulative, easier for a non-boat builder to build and because of the abundance of people that aren't aware of the real advantages of wood, wood boats are very cheap now.
I agree. I've seen glass boats take hits resulting in cracks that the same hit on a wooden hull would often just leave a mark. I do not know for sure but my observation has been that wood will flex and bend more than glass before fracruering.
The above observation was from my kid years when glass boats were kinda new and we tended to drink alot often resulting at banging the dock at light 29 marina when we went for more beer. The old rockholt and cc took some nasty whacks especially at night when the current was strong.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:10 PM   #97
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Amazing that with wooden boats being so obviously superior in every way, that that damm near none around compared to fiberglass.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:41 PM   #98
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Keith,
Looks like a no-brainer to me.
Just too labor intensive to be cost effective.
Plastic boats are cheaper in every way.
But I'm kin'a glad I've got one.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:10 PM   #99
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Fiberglass boats have plenty of examples of landing on rocks or reefs and grinding away for hours with little or no damage while wood boats in a few feet of chop let alone hitting a deadhead have popped a plank and sank.

The USCG has all but legislated against planked wooden vessels for inspected vessels... I wonder why...
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:04 PM   #100
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You're right psneeld. Wood boats don't have a good reputation for puncture resistance. And I'll admit that one of the reasons I bought the Willard is that it has a robust hull. I hit a rock at anchor w Willy and still can't figure out how it could seem like we hit so hard. No damage. Hit a log in Clearance Strait at cruising speed and it went BOOM! I thought for sure we'd been holed. Threw the hatches open looked everywhere but no water came aboard. Hit a full grown Humpback whale (T boned him) at over 6 knots and stopped in about 2'. No damage I THINK. But there is what appears to be a verticle crack on the leading edge right where we hit the whale. Gonna grind a bit and put a FG expert on it to see if all's well.

But I think puncture resistance w planked hulls and plywood hulls ate not to be compared as anywhere equal. Plywood has incredible puncture resistance but it's only as strong as the keels, chine logs and fasteners that hold it in place. If you use epoxy, FG, filler and radised overlays it may be stronger than a 100% FG boat. But of course it's not then a wood boat ... or is it? The only larger boat I built was a plywood boat and I don't think I could have built it out of FG.. I don't think it could have taken the beating at sea that I gave the plywood boat. I've been known to jump the wake of the ferry Wikersham (an older sea going Alaska State ferry) going 21 knots at close to that speed myself. A very airborne and bent leg experience. The plywood boat seemed to think it was fun too.

And I think cold moulded and other composite hulls are stronger than FG by a long shot.

But a planked hull like carvel or batten seam construction would not be so puncture resistant but the ability to take a smashing from waves and seas are probably right up there.

But re what psneeld said I agree w as I've seen FG boats that have been pounded to death on exposed beaches and it's obvious they put up a very commendable fight.
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