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Old 12-10-2012, 11:47 AM   #21
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Boat materials

Wood boats rot from the top down, fiberglass from the bottom up, steel from the inside out and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy. Pick your poison.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:05 PM   #22
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Wood boats rot from the top down, fiberglass from the bottom up, steel from the inside out and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy. Pick your poison.
RandyT

Spot on RandyT!
I've played with a bit of osmosis and rust over the years, but overall I still prefer rot. Of course given an open ended budget, I'd be tempted to try a bit of that Dashew fizz.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:13 PM   #23
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You guys ought to come out to Carolina sometime and visit the custom sportfish makers at Jarrett Bay or on Roanoke Island. Wood is still the material of choice out here for these multi million dollar battlewagons, on down to the Harkers island skiffs. The construction is pretty high tech and to be sure involves a lot of epoxy. Check out brands such as Spencer, Paul Mann, Jarrett Bay to name but three. Incredible craftsmanship. According to the captains that run them, the ride/speed combination hasn't been beat by Hatteras and Viking without adding lots of horse power and weight.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:24 PM   #24
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Wood boats look better, ride better, are quieter and have petter performance and re the last post it looks like you get what you pay for. Better things cost more money and require more effort.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:33 PM   #25
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Hull Material

Quote:
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Spot on RandyT!
I've played with a bit of osmosis and rust over the years, but overall I still prefer rot. Of course given an open ended budget, I'd be tempted to try a bit of that Dashew fizz.
I call a Dashew boat "dreaming in the unlimited catagory". I have followed his work for years and he does it right. Seems like he always starts out with a clean sheet of paper when he designs a boat. Plus he doesn't give a hoot about what the marketing guys have say.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:37 PM   #26
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Wood boats rot from the top down, And, worms come in from bottom up, fiberglass from the bottom up Not well applied layers of thick hand laid FRP with good resin and thick gel coat, steel from the inside out, And, outside in as well as anywhere in between. and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy... I think that's where Alka Seltzer got its idea! Pick your poison.
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RandyT


Randy - see bold inserts to your copy above... hope you don't mind, simplest way I could comment on your post.

This link proves the resiliency of FRP (its header is copied below): http://www.shieldsfleetone.org/Photos/Photos_231_Salvage/231%20salvage.htm Other studies I’ve read state that well laid FRP could last 100 years or longer. I can knowingly state: Our 35 year old Tollycraft hull shows NO degradation. Bottom remains blister free. Superstructure FRP, cored or otherwise, is still in good condition. Only “rot” we have at on our Tolly is the ronnt few inches of port mahogney spacer used for bolting out bridge to salon top. Eventually I will replace that wood with thick plastic bars.

The Salvage of Shields #231: Shields #231 sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 by swamping in an Easterly. She was floated again on October 2, 2002 by fleet members H.L. DeVore and Bill Gerety with significant assistance from Lada Sinek, Howie McMichael and Bo Bohmert of Bohmert Marine. #231 is due to be refitted and rechristened "Mermaid" and will be rejoining Fleet #1.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:27 PM   #27
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Here is how I sum up the difference between a wood boat and a glass boat, at least in this climate (PNW). Assuming open moorage, if you park a glass boat and go away for a year, when you come back the glass boat will be really, really dirty and some of the systems in the boat won't work when you turn them on or try to use them. Rainwater will have found its way into the bilge around deck hatches and vents and will be puddled in the bilge. Other than that, the boat will be pretty much as you left it.

If you park a wood boat and go away for a year, when you come back the wood boat will be really, really dirty and some of the systems in the boat won't work when you turn them on or try to use them. In addition the wood boat will have developed leaks around the windows and other places allowing fresh water to saturate the frames, walls, etc. and dry rot will most likely have gotten a toe-hold. Likewise the rainwater that leaked in through hatches and vents will be puddled in the bilge after soaking down various boards on its way there, and dry rot will most likely have gotten a toe hold.

The owner of the glass boat will be facing a major exterior clean up effort as well as the repair of whatever systems--- toilets, electronics, etc.--- no longer worked when he got back. The owner of the wood boat will be facing the same things plus the potential of some major wood repair, some of it structural.

That to me is the only important difference between a wood boat and a glass boat.

I like wood boats, and if they were properly constructed with appropriate materials and are kept up, preferably inside in this region, they can last a long, long time and the upkeep, while different, will not require much more effort than a glass boat. I have seen GB woodies that are in spectacular condition, and these are boats that were all built in the 1960s and very early 70s.

But I would never own a wood boat simply because I have not got the time to care for one properly and I'm not going to spend the money on a boathouse. We can let some things slide with our glass boat and know that the situation will not deteriorate farther if we do.

Right now there is a classic, wood, 40 foot Chris Craft on our dock that the owner lived on for some ten years. He no longer does and the boat has been for sale for the last two-three years. The owner comes down when he can and tries to keep up with the boat but it is obvious it is getting away from him. As opposed to when he lived on it and could catch things before they became problems. Our rainy winter has started and the boat's deterioration is accelerating simply because the owner is no longer there every day to look after it.

There is also a virtually abandoned fiberglass 36 or so foot Chris Craft on our dock that gets no attention at all and hasn't for years. It too, is for sale. It's filthy, and I have no idea of the condition of the boat's systems and engines. But it has been purchased a couple of times and the new owners whipped the boat back into presentable shape in a couple of weekends of hard work. These sales fell through for some reason and the boat would sink back into getting filthy again. But it wasn't physically deteriorating as the wood Chris Craft is a few slips away.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:15 PM   #28
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So what's your point Marin?
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:47 PM   #29
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So what's your point Marin?
Well, there isn't one really. Those are what I feel are the differences between the two materials with regard to building boats with them. If you're looking for me to say that one is superior to the other I'm not going to do it because I don't think either one of them is inherently superior.

I think it all depends on how the boat is going to be treated over time.

For the lifestyle of the typical boat owner today, particularly one who like me is working full time, I feel a glass boat is the far better choice over a traditionally built wood boat simply because it can stand up to being ignored for significant lengths of time.

I'm told by people in our marina who know us that my wife and I are in the tiny majority of people in our 2000+ boat harbor who actually use their boats year round. Which doesn't necessarily mean take the boat out every time but we use it almost every weekend--- stay on it, operate the systems, and so on.

But most of the boats in our marina are ignored all winter and some are ignored all summer, too, other than perhaps one or two outings. If they're glass, they don't suffer much other than getting dirty.

For a person with more time, a wood boat can be every bit as easy to maintain as a glass one. As I mentioned, I have seen some better-than-new GB woodies over the years. Almost all of them boathouse kept and almost all of them retiree-owned.

I don't think glass boats are inherently uglier than wood boats although I think most of them are uglier. I think glass boats lend themselves to mass production which means keeping costs low to appeal to the greatest number of buyers which means keeping molds simple and the boat manufacturing itself labor-unintensive. All of which pretty much back you into the corner of less than ideal aesthetics, at least in my book. It's why an Aston Martin looks a hell of a lot nicer than a Ford Fusion.

I don't feel it's the wood that makes most wood boats more aesthetic than most glass boats, I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic. There is no physical reason that a glass boat can't look every bit as nice. For example, there is a company making fiberglass versions of the Lake Union Dreamboat and you can't tell them apart from the originals. But you pay a price for this because of the labor required to make them look like that.

So I don't think wood is superior, nor do I think fiberglass is superior. Not until you define some stuff, like how the boat will be kept and treated and the attitude of the owner toward the boat. Then one material can prove to be superior over the other in that particular case.

I know you're looking for me to make a stand, Eric, and say all wood boats suck or all glass boats suck or something like that. But I don't think that a claim like that can be made, at least not on a rational level. If I had the time, the money (to have a boathouse in this climate), and the maintenance and repair skills I would have no issue with owning a wood boat. But I don't have any of that and don't ever anticipate having any of that. Which is why I say I would never own a wood boat. A glass boat I can get away with given my limitations.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:01 AM   #30
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I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic.

Wooden boats are built usually one at a time , so the owners input is required, and usually a NA is involved.Some have a great eye.

GRP boats are usually made from a mold and to amortize the mold cost about 100 hopefully will be made.

Selling a mass market cookie is very different from pleasing a knowledgible owner.

When the sales pitch is mere volume at low cost , quality ,performance , repairability and most of the requirements to operate the vessel over decades is missing.

You get what you pay for,
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:04 AM   #31
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"I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic."

Wooden boats are built usually one at a time , so the owners input is required, and usually a NA is involved.Some have a great eye. And many yards are highly skilled

GRP boats are usually made from a mold and to amortize the mold cost about 100 hopefully will be made.

Selling a mass market cookie is very different from pleasing a knowledgible owner.

When the sales pitch is mere volume at low cost , quality ,performance , repairability and most of the requirements to operate the vessel over decades is missing.AS are esthetics.

You get what you pay for,
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:11 AM   #32
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I agree that the Dashews do it right. As far as a clean sheet of paper for the design, I'm not so sure. Look at Tad Roberts Passagemaker light series. Thse long , slim designs pre date "Windhorse" by several years. We are lucky to have Tad on the forum lately.
Elco and others were doing the extreme length to beam equation as well.
In the mid 90's I built a 30' LOA by 6' beam "Tennessee" design by Phil Bolger. It was designed for a 10 HP Yamaha high thrust .
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:16 AM   #33
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Wood boats won't burn as quick as a Fiberglass boat.
Easier motion in a seaway.
How does the building material contribute to "motion in a seaway?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM   #34
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HAHA Marin I'm not trying to trip you up, win an argument, get you to admit something you wouldn't otherwise admit, or as you say "take a stand". Interesting concept though. Perhaps I'll set you up some day. HAHA Probably already have though but sure don't remember.

There are some FG boats that are stunningly beautiful and there are quite a few that are good looking like the Sea Dories, Flemming's and Bayliner PH cruisers. On the other hand there are wood boats that were ugly ... well unattractive. Some were wood boats that had FG cabin tops that looked like a hat put "on top" of something ... because good looking cabin tops were difficult to make so the FG saved time and money. But of course that was FG.

On a negative note there were wood boats not very attractive like the boats of the twenties that had too many flat, vertical and slab sided cabin surfaces to be even remotely beautiful. And in the late 50s the vulgar styling of the automobile spilled over into boat design.

And as Fred says the designers were in a different time and designing things (boats) w a different sense of vogueness. What is popular is always changing. People that the products were designed for (boats) had different tastes. In the wood boat days people had more Cadillac type tastes than plain jane tastes. Boats were designed to have more class as more people on the receiving end had more class. People in the wood boat days sought elegance whereas people in the Sea Ray Bayliner days were looking for something that was more modern, cool and "in". So the needs of peoples "things" changed about how they looked and how other people would see and judge them re how they looked. So the desires of people and their needs designed boats perhaps even more than the architects that drew them up, made adjustments for the workability of the materials at hand, ran the numbers and added flourishes some of which would become a bit popular like swept back radar arches. Somewhat was vogue in the 50s is no longer and what is vogue now will soon pass.

Other things make me dream of going back too like rotten cabins, decks and hull stringers and of course blisters not to mention attractiveness at all.

But living in a plastic age where vogueness is more important than the elements of art and class also makes me want to go back to the good old days that on these terms were really the good old days. So on occasion I dream of wood boats.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:19 PM   #35
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Wood boats do not have as "corky" a motion as a Fiberglass boat. Ask many of the Maine Lobstermen who spend their entire adult life on their feet at the rail of a boat. Many have either switched back to Wood after years in FG. I'm sure other fisheries have the same issues.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:42 PM   #36
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Another advantage to a wood boat is the low commission paid to a broker to sell the boat. The commission rate is the same for fiberglass but to get a wooden boat sold the price normally has to be very low.
Outside of my office is a 2005 54' Vicem enclosed flybridge convertible built like a Jarrett Bay, cold molded composite. Asking price on this estate sale boat is only $399,000.
Please do not consider this a broker ad for this boat, with twin 800 HP MAN diesels I know this forum well enough that potential buyers will not be reading this! The picture is just for discusion of style since that has been brought up a lot in this discussion.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #37
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If the windows are rotting after being ignored for a year there is a great deal wrong. Bad materials, bad design, and bad construction. The windows in the boat below are 65 years old, they are original, they are not rotten and do not leak. They are made of mahogany and have received a few coats of varnish in 65 years, otherwise they have been ignored.

Proper design, construction, and maintenance of any material is vital to it's longevity. Good boats can be built of many materials, also bad ones. The main reason for major problems in any material is deferred maintenance or simple ignorance of what is required. All boats require maintenance to continue to look pristine.....

The main reason for having a boat of any particular material is that, "that's what you want".

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Old 12-11-2012, 02:02 PM   #38
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Good windows TAD I wish my windows were as good on my FG Willard.

Yes, boats are toys/yachts pleasure boats ect and the bottom line is how much like them. But in favor of some of the FG attitude is that as conceived part of the pleasure we get from them is tainted by the perception of all work and no play. I'll have to admit that the junction of cabin and deck on my plastic Willard boat has been bullet proof these last 7 years in Alaska.

Beautiful boat in the pic and it looks like it's almost as stiff as my Willard.

YBG,
In this case you present I think the hull is beautiful but the entire cabin does the beautiful Hull no favors.

SofF,
So what do you attribute the "corky" feel to?
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:26 PM   #39
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An awesome Creep deserving of its own thread

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...tive-8096.html
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #40
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An awesome Creep deserving of its own thread

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...tive-8096.html
I say boat design is proactive! Now, that should settle it!
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