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Old 02-23-2016, 09:02 AM   #1
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Sunken Boats

Since I anchor out a lot I have been concerned about the increase in restrictions in Florida and the creation of city owned mooring fields covering the best anchorages. I disagree with the approach that is being taken, the aim of which seems to be moving along liveaboards and often to protect the views from expense waterfront properties.

Then this weekend I was bringing my new boat back from Stuart and saw many sunken boats along the way, some photos below. Many clearly a hazard to navigation, especially to smaller boats that may run out of the channels.

I know that liveaboards have to register and tag their boats, so why aren't they made responsible for retrieving the sunken vessel? Is that a waste of time because they don't have the money to do that - or even pay fines? Should tax dollars be used to clean the waterways up?

What's the solution here? Right now all that is happening is flotilla of liveaboards just move a mile down the river, and then sink there.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:25 AM   #2
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Greetings,
Mr. M. Excellent question which has been briefly discussed in other threads but bears a re-visit. Salvage of these abandoned vessels might be a viable business for someone but I think ownership of said vessels and jurisdictional responsibility might preclude anyone from just going out and getting some of these "wrecks".

Some of those look interesting. Never considered a cat but if it's free... (I know, I know. There's no such thing as free). Still...
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:38 AM   #3
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Brevard county hired a salvage company to clean up a bunch of sunken ones, but at about $10,000 per boat, they ran out at about 20 boats. I suggested that they have the landfill set aside a drop-off area where people who don't want their boats can drop them off for free. If you want to go out there and scavenge something, go for it. After a while, once the bones are picked clean, they take the forklift and put it in the crusher and out to the landfill it goes. So far, no one has done that though.

They try to recover the cost of salvage from the previous owners, but most said "we sold it to some guy for cash..." so the trail goes cold. The current laws don't hold previous owners responsible for current owner's misdeeds.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:42 AM   #4
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On weds the Florida house will take up a bill that started out as an attempt to remedy these situations but has morphed into something much worse. If you travel or anchor anywhere in Florida you might want to get involved. I'm going to paste one of the letters from a seven seas cruiser that helps explain a bit about what is going on here. Once it happens here it will happen everywhere else.


MORE IMMEDIATE ACTION IS NEEDED FOR YOU TO PRESERVE YOUR ANCHORING RIGHTS

This is a new alert. CS/SB2160 is the product of a 5-4 decision in the Senate Environmental Preservation and Conservation Committee. The Appropriations Subcommittee on Transportation, Tourism, and Economic Development of the Florida Senate is scheduled to take up CS/SB1260 which is a threat to your anchoring rights on Wednesday, February 24 at 1:30. The bill is similar to CS/HB1051’ It provides for a total anchoring ban in Middle River, City of Ft. Lauderdale; Sunset Lake in Miami-Dade County along with three other areas in Dade County. The bill includes a safe harbor provision and allowance for emergency and government vessels to anchor overnight. While the bill is limited to only five anchorages, Seven Seas Cruising Association along with many other boating organizations oppose this bill.

The main two reasons is that it sets a dangerous precedent that leaves the door open for other communities to add no anchoring areas through amendments before the session ends or come back next year with another list to add. Secondly, it is premature for these two areas to receive special treatment to create outright bans on anchoring without any state oversight or review. Since the Florida anchoring pilot program will end in July 2017, it is best for these three areas to wait until a statewide policy is created and passed next year.

You need to contact the committee members today to expressyour concern about this bill. This is a new meeting so if you have sent note previously, thank you but these are the current players in the issue. You need to be sure that if you are a Florida resident and boater to identify yourself as such. A phone call is the best followed up by an email. They may not read them all, but they do count and if the phone is ringing off the hook you bet they at least know that is major opposition.

You can use the following as a part of your email and you may add anything else you wish.

“I am a boater and resident of Florida and am writing in opposition to CS/SB1260. Boaters who cruise Florida’s waterways have a right to reasonable opportunities to anchor our boats for recreation and to stage for longer voyages. This bill proposes to remove five major anchorages from South Florida which will have a negative impact on the jobs created by business that rely on these cruisers who purchase fuel, food, supplies and seek repairs of their boats.

The committee staff in the Environmental Preservation and Conservation has advised its committee that this bill may violate the constitutional provision prohibiting a General Bill of Local Application. This is a very bad bill. It allows only two communities other than those in the Florida Anchoring Pilot Program to prohibit anchoring in parts of state waters in their jurisdiction. There are many other communities who have the desire to regulate anchoring that have not been considered or included. No local public hearings have been held on this issue. The bill does not provide geographic descriptions of the restricted areas and no signage is required to notify boaters who will be passing through which will result in questionable enforcement. The legislature will have to address anchoring provisions for communities next year as the program expires in 2017. After that it would then prohibit any community from regulating anchoring. We ask you to simply vote against this bill so that comprehensive legislation for all ALL communities to have reasonable regulatory authority for anchoring in their community can be passed next year.

In previous hearings it has been pointed out that the purpose of this bill is to address boating safety issues involving narrow channels. Only one of these areas in fact are navigation channels, Middle River. The remaining areas are are located outside of channels. The anchoring section of Middle Rivers is a large expanse of water and does not include the narrow canal to the north yet the ban includes the anchorage that has plenty of room for anchored boats and other boating traffic.“

Here are the emails and phone number for the member of those committees.

Jeff Brandeis, St. Petersburg brandes.jef@flsenate.gov 850 487 5022
Jeff Clemens, Lake Worth clemens.jeff@flsenate.gov 850 5027
Nancy C. Detert, Venice detert.nancy@fsenate.gov 850 487 5028
Miguel Diaz de la Portilla, Miami portilla.miguel@flsenate.gov850 487 5040
Audrey Gibson, Jacksonville gibson.audrey@flsenate.gov 850 487 5009
Dorothy L. Hukill, Port Orange hukill.dorothy@flsenate.gov850 487 5008
Jack Latvala, Clearwater latvala.jack@flsenate.gov 850 487 5020
Maria Lorts Sachs, Delray Beach sachs.maria@flsenate.gov 850 487 5034
Geraldine F. “Geri” Thompson, Orlando Thompson.geraldine850 487 5012

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill...illText/c1/PDF

Here is a link to the bill:
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill...illText/c1/PDF

Here is a link to the committee:
http://www.flsenate.gov/Committees/Show/ATD/



For more information please contact:

Phillip Werndli, Member
Concerned Cruisers Committee
Seven Seas Cruising Association
pwerndli@gmail.com
850 519-8398


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Old 02-23-2016, 09:46 AM   #5
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The state has a fund available to help with cleaning up derelicts. And there are procedures in place for cities and counties to deal with these things. But it takes time and money, and the cities think it is easier to just outlaw anchoring. Not to mention the fact that the wealthy waterfront land-owners like the idea of controlling their view. So that is where we are.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:46 AM   #6
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Sea Tow Cape May a few years back cleaned up the harbor as a gesture of good community spirit.

Can't remember if there was a grant involved which I am sure didn't really cover all the costs even if used and some local volunteerism and donations.

Tied it in with some community celebration so I am sure advertising and tax deductions helped too.

But it still was pretty cool of the owner to do it.

Maybe local pressure can get stuff done where state or federal is just being lost to bigger problems.

Now the question of how/why it happens in the first place might be closer to the heart of the anchoring issue than many will admit too unfortunately.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:10 AM   #7
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Washington State has a program to try and remove derelict or abandoned boats from state waters. It is poorly funded and staffed. They first try to identify the owners of abandoned vessels, but even if they find them, there is usually a financial reason for the boat being abandoned to begin with.

If I recal, there is one full time state employee working on this. The State asks boaters to identify boats they feel are abandoned. The problem is that there are more boats than there is time or money. Unfortunately, old boats are cheap to buy and many folks have bought them before they realized how much they cost to repair, maintain, insure, and moor.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #8
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It is always the bums who ruin it for everyone.No benches in parks because bums sleep on them and no anchoring because bums live on derelict boats without pump out that eventually sink. it is colplicated leghally to destroy a boay because ownership is very hard to identify.


The other side of the story is Vinoy basin in St. Pete had derelicts, sunken boats and some still afloat that had not moved in years. Today it has moorings for $13 per day including secure dingy dock, showers and laundry facilities, free pump out boat and a clean basin frequently occupied by nice condition boats. It seems more popular than ever with responsible people.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:53 AM   #9
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Greetings,
Mr. b. "...no anchoring because bums live on derelict boats without pump out that eventually sink." True in some circumstances although I know one couple and another a single mom who live aboard on their vessels that the majority of people, particularly non boaters, would consider quite derelict boats. They have fallen on hard times and can't afford to re-do their brightwork on a regular basis or afford much else other than food but to consider them bums? Nope. NOT at all! They are responsible to the extent that their finances allow. In any case, I clearly see your point.

As far as ownership...It shouldn't be difficult for a county, town or city to post a notice on the vessel and/or in the local newspaper that the vessel will be removed at such and such a date unless the owner remove it. Then proceed to get rid of it.

I realize this will cost someone $$ but the problem will ultimately be solved for that particular vessel/hazard. Mr. dh has noted this (lack of $$).
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:25 AM   #10
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There is no paper trail for the sunken scows, so the taxpayers are stuck with the clean-up. "Free" anchorages ain't free.
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:38 AM   #11
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Taxpayers are stuck with many society issues....

If the right (and fair) legislation was passed up front...maybe it would be less of an issue....


Not sure derelicts should determine anchoring rights....if handles correctly.

My problem is defining right in a society based on freedoms written by guys who would have given their lives for it and a society where we can't get individuals to not litter. Go figure...
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. b. "...no anchoring because bums live on derelict boats without pump out that eventually sink." True in some circumstances although I know one couple and another a single mom who live aboard on their vessels that the majority of people, particularly non boaters, would consider quite derelict boats. They have fallen on hard times and can't afford to re-do their brightwork on a regular basis or afford much else other than food but to consider them bums? Nope. NOT at all! They are responsible to the extent that their finances allow. In any case, I clearly see your point.

As far as ownership...It shouldn't be difficult for a county, town or city to post a notice on the vessel and/or in the local newspaper that the vessel will be removed at such and such a date unless the owner remove it. Then proceed to get rid of it.

I realize this will cost someone $$ but the problem will ultimately be solved for that particular vessel/hazard. Mr. dh has noted this (lack of $$).
Exactly, just because your poor, does not make you a bum.
Here in Virginia, I see no sunken boats in water. Some boats did wash up on shore in past hurricanes and a few are sill there.

Florida being warm is where people who have little money want to live, they don't have money to heat the boat, etc...so they want to go south. There was a guy who had a wife and kid in Russia come to visit one summer. He decided to go south to florida with them. He had fallen behind at the marina as his sister did not approve of his Russian wife and kid and she had been supporting him as he was disabled. Sad story since after he arrived in FLA was struck down by a truck and is now permanently severely disabled and his wife went back to Russia and he lost his double masted nice sail boat. His sister though manages his affairs and supposedly the insurance paid out a lot of money. But also sadly he wont ever see any of it himself, she has power of attorney. Interestly, someone bought the boat and I had heard might come back to the same slip.
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:47 PM   #13
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Today's responsible boat owner could be tomorrow's derelict. The situation will only get worse as more and more derelicts are FRP. At least a big Broward can be effectively recycled.

As previously intimated, FL boaters, high population density, snow birds and aided by lax moorage and anchoring laws have been creating this stew of problems for a very long time.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:06 PM   #14
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It is not just a FL or warm weather problem. Here is the link to WA states derelict vessel program

This program has been pretty successful and both removing problem boats but also in preventing boats from becoming problems. There are still more abandoned vessels than the program can get to, but it certainly helps.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by dhays View Post
It is not just a FL or warm weather problem. Here is the link to WA states derelict vessel program

This program has been pretty successful and both removing problem boats but also in preventing boats from becoming problems. There are still more abandoned vessels than the program can get to, but it certainly helps.
We witnessed one of the boats being hauled to shore, crushed, and put into dumpsters. Very impressive. Nothing like that in FL. The key was these vessels all were still afloat and actually sitting at the marina waiting.

The key is identifying and assisting or taking action with "at risk" vessels, so you're not dealing with sunken vessels.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:10 PM   #16
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https://public.myfwc.com/LE/ArrestNe...VesselMap.aspx
Not working. not implemented yet.
I watched a video from FWC which showed it working.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:40 PM   #17
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Greetings,
Mr. 717. THANKS, bookmarked. Any indication as to when it will be working?
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