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Old 02-13-2016, 10:59 AM   #21
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I certainly agree one must hire their own surveyor after obtaining independent references from other boat buyers. In this case, out of curiosity, how old was the "existing" survey? Did you review it with the surveyor during a walkthrough of the boat?

I asked about how old the survey was for a reason: Let me remind you of one of the great truisms of boating "Even as the boat sits there in its slip, things are breaking". Plus, there was a one week 200km journey as well.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:41 AM   #22
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I'm with Ps on this one, I think you got lucky (hopefully) if this is the worst of things. IMO boat brokers are mostly used car salesmen on steroids. It will be of no consolation to you when you later find other even more major and expensive things that were "missed". I dont think litigation will get you anything, but the threat of it may.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:48 AM   #23
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Let it go. If the broker knew the holding tank was cracked he would not have used it. I'll bet the POs never used it. Canada laws are nearly non-existent re: waste discharge (as compared to the USA). I knew a guy with a gorgeous boat, bought new. He bragged after 5 years that no one had ever done a "number two" on his boat. 😘
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:00 PM   #24
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I'm concerned about the stainless holding tank...
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:03 PM   #25
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As a Canadian Lawyer, well familiar with Small Claims Court:

As Is means that you have absolutely no recourse against the seller. It is totally up to you to do all pertinent inspections and negotiate reductions in the price for anything you find that is not to your liking.
Getting a survey involves signing a contract with a surveyor. In that contract you will find language that limits the liability of the surveyor, usually to not more than a refund of his/her fee.
Going into Court with a grievance worth only $7k (to the US reader, that is more like $5k US these days) is a total waste of your time, even if you had a winning case, which, of course you don't.

Put your energy into other things, you will live longer.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:04 PM   #26
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I say don't waste your time and money in court. I bought a boat advertised with AIS. The independent surveyor stated it had AIS, I guess relying on the listing info. Shortly after closing I determined there was no AIS. I would have been happy settling for a few hundred dollars, but the broker stopped answering my calls. Neither the broker or surveyor showed up in small claims. The judge ruled against me, saying I should have checked it out myself. So much for surveys. The broker has since gone out of business. I bought an AIS and moved on.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:05 PM   #27
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A couple things come to my mind on this. First, in my experience, a survey usually will have as many pages devoted to how the surveyor cannot be held responsible for what he submits as pages that explain what he has found about a boat. They pretty well cover their butts.

Secondly, if the broker delivered the boat, the fact that he used the toilet system suggests that he did not know of the problem. Had he known, of course, he would have delivered the boat clean and let you fill the tank.

Finally, small claims court around here have a limit of $2,500 on the amount an individual is trying to recover.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:36 PM   #28
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This post once again points out the importance of a good current survey and the absolute necessity of checking out each and every system. Even though near new, when we got our current vessel, systems checks beyond what a surveyor would do revealed several issues. We caught about 90% of them.

I too am curious about the SS holding tank, not all SS is created equal nor is sewage a good application.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:39 PM   #29
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IMO boat brokers are mostly used car salesmen on steroids.

No. It is much more akin to Real Estate sales...with the possibility of drowning.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:02 PM   #30
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As a Canadian Lawyer, well familiar with Small Claims Court: As Is means that you have absolutely no recourse against the seller. Put your energy into other things, you will live longer.
Great advice. My experience with small claims has proven to mean "settlement conference" after a couple of years, which is mostly a time and resources waster.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:13 PM   #31
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On a more practical level, it is not a typical part of a survey to fill and pump out the holding tank. They inspect visually, but if you want the tank tested, that be done by request.

The tank problems would likey not have been noticed in even a good survey.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:38 PM   #32
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Knowledge is the key. Do your research on that particular model and year boat. Know the particulars going in. Then hire a surveyor that also knows that boat. SS holding tank, to me, screams lack of knowledge. The only thing worse would be aluminum, which I have seen.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:45 PM   #33
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The tank problems would likey not have been noticed in even a good survey.
Most brokers have "disclaimers" and I don't like to see blanket negative statements about (all) brokers.

I have recently had more difficulty getting information from private sellers than brokers. I don't understand why FSBOs don't use a brokers listing, like Yachtworld, as a template. So simple.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:54 PM   #34
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Did you pay to fill the fuel tanks to see if they leaked?

Every contract I have seen has an as is ,where is clause you must not have read.
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:02 PM   #35
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It's a good idea when going to survey to set up for all the tanks to be filled at your cost. More than one boat had leaky fuel fill hoses, crappy vents or leaky water or holding tank.

The holding tank if never used can be filled through the pump out fitting with fresh water, then pumped back out at a pump out facility. Macerator for overboard can then be tested too.

This will have to be requested by the buyer when the survey is being set up.
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:37 PM   #36
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Isn't small claims limited to $3K?
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:53 PM   #37
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Isn't small claims limited to $3K?
Small claims are filed in local courts and the local jurisdictions (usually states) legislate the max claim.

Canada has their own set of civil procedures and it sounds like they have higher limits.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:02 PM   #38
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........Seems to me if I were a broker and knew of these issues before hand, I would not have signed up to deliver the boat.
Exactly!!! You just beat me to it.

As for the surveyor, they are like auto mechanics, lots of 'em out there, but so many good ones. In a perfect world, it should not matter who hired the surveyor because the surveyor should be objective and not party biased.
However, we don't live in a perfect world.

As for any legal action, small claims court would be my only option. Hiring a lawyer would be a disaster. It wont take them long to run up a $7K bill whether you win or not.

As previously recommended, get a new surveyor to find out what else needs to be addressed. The best recommendation for a surveyor would be from the highest dollar Boat Broker in your area. When they sell boats for the big boys, they usually want the boat to be surveyed by a really good surveyor. Their reputation with future buyers is way more important than any one individual sale. usually the good surveyors don't charge any more than the dead heads.

Sometimes, for your own peace of mind, you just have to take the FIDO attitude. F**k It and Drive On. Then you will be able to enjoy your new boat.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:04 PM   #39
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Knowledge is the key. Do your research on that particular model and year boat. Know the particulars going in. Then hire a surveyor that also knows that boat. SS holding tank, to me, screams lack of knowledge. The only thing worse would be aluminum, which I have seen.

Thanks, now you got me worried but I'm always willing to learn,
My previous sailboat had the original SS tank from 2007 with no issues.
I built this new one with 1/8" SS, all 4 sides were formed at bottom with the edges welded on inside and outside and c/w caulking over the inside welds and before the top was welded in place. ( yes ! I did put baffles too .. )
So please explain the downside of SS, hopefully I did not make a mistake with this.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:13 PM   #40
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Thanks, now you got me worried but I'm always willing to learn,
My previous sailboat had the original SS tank from 2007 with no issues.
I built this new one with 1/8" SS, all 4 sides were formed at bottom with the edges welded on inside and outside and c/w caulking over the inside welds and before the top was welded in place. ( yes ! I did put baffles too .. )
So please explain the downside of SS, hopefully I did not make a mistake with this.
ooops ! should have been 1987
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