Steel hulls in the PNW?

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Just a couple of comments. Our diesel duck was in the PNW for 12 years. It was Canada built, while the designs are built in quantity in China and Turkey. Like any other material used in boatbuilding, there are maintenance jobs that need to be attended to. Be religious about preventing leaks. Treat any rust that develops with a converter and then prime/paint, even when it's a small spot. Keep an eye on your zincs. If you do all that, the boat will last indefinitely. We went to steel from fiberglass after a trip to Alaska. Log strikes are less of a worry when your hull is 1/4" steel and your prop is caged. And no issues with blisters or worries about dissimilar metals in the bilge.
Hull interior should be foam lined above the waterline, epoxy coated below.Limber holes need to be kept clear. Earlier post was quite correct about types of foam -- avoid the flammable types or be sure your fire fighting gear is reliable. Even if it isn't flammable, foams will char and release toxic gasses. We had an electrical short in the bow thruster controller a decade ago, and the amount of smoke generated was phenomenal. Took a fireman with a respirator to go down and see that nothing was ablaze. We would have been in Big Trouble if the foam had been flammable.
 
I've seen a custom steel hull boat (1980s vintage) for sale in Washington. Not knowing if saltwater is more corrosive on steel, but suspecting it is, anyone have experience with a tin can in that environment?

Please keep in mind it is all about Maintenance, but "almost" all commercial fishing boats that ply the seas from WA to Alaska are steel, as well as all modern tugs, barges, ships etc. It definitely helps when you hit a log underway, i can attest having almost 4" of steel in my bow stem on my Diesel Duck. What type of boat?
 
Just a couple of comments. Our diesel duck was in the PNW for 12 years. It was Canada built, while the designs are built in quantity in China and Turkey. Like any other material used in boatbuilding, there are maintenance jobs that need to be attended to. Be religious about preventing leaks. Treat any rust that develops with a converter and then prime/paint, even when it's a small spot. Keep an eye on your zincs. If you do all that, the boat will last indefinitely. We went to steel from fiberglass after a trip to Alaska. Log strikes are less of a worry when your hull is 1/4" steel and your prop is caged. And no issues with blisters or worries about dissimilar metals in the bilge.
Hull interior should be foam lined above the waterline, epoxy coated below.Limber holes need to be kept clear. Earlier post was quite correct about types of foam -- avoid the flammable types or be sure your fire fighting gear is reliable. Even if it isn't flammable, foams will char and release toxic gasses. We had an electrical short in the bow thruster controller a decade ago, and the amount of smoke generated was phenomenal. Took a fireman with a respirator to go down and see that nothing was ablaze. We would have been in Big Trouble if the foam had been flammable.

What DD is yours sir?
 
If you are looking at a 1980s steel boat, the survey will be important, and you will need to have an ultrasound scan that gives you hull plate thickness. That will let you know about any interior rusting that is in places that are impossible to reach from the inside.
 
We have a classic DD44, Kaloa.
 

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I have a friend at my marina that has a really cool steel boat built in the 60's. He did a huge blasting/repaint on it himself many years ago. His paint finish is just a rolled on with a roller finish. It seems like the secret to happiness on steel boats. Any scratches or dings, he goes around a couple times a year, preps them, then hits them with a little weeny roller. So much easier and less stressful than trying to repair a nice fair, glossy yacht finish. Steel boats look great with a well kept "Workboat" finish. The same would probably lead to a happier life with a fiberglass boat, but it is so out of the ordinary it would look out of place, and likely make it very hard to sell.
 
I always wondered if applying spray flamed zinc, that was then coated with Epoxy, was a belt and suspenders approach or overkill? :socool::rofl:


Later,
Dan

Dan,

Not 100% sure this will translate to boats. But in the Fence Manufacturing Industry, there is a known issue with the adhesion of powder coats and epoxy paints to freshly galvanized surfaces. One manufacturer of decorative estate gates in Ensenada, Mexico that is a leading importer to the US and Canadian market uses spray-flamed zinc on their decorative gates, while some Chinese companies use hot-dipped galvanization. Both have had issues of adhesion performances that were degraded due to zinc outgassing. With industrial-grade Chain Link manufacturing there were many failures associated with paints and powder coating processes over both the fabric, chainlink woven wire, and the posts and rails, and especially galvanized fittings.

It is not likely to oxidize after the coating fails, it just doesn't look good.
A case of the "suspenders not causing the belt to fail, just making you look bad for wearing both". There are barrier and primer interfaces that work well with both zinc and final coating. This will not inhibit outgassing. It is akin to old CCA-treated lumber and the question of staining and sealing a deck to protect it. The CCA was excellent for rot-proofing a marine dock, but the best practice is to wait a year or so to try to seal. I would say the ultimate scenario would be a galvanized steel boat that would be epoxy-primed and painted after a couple or few years of outgassing. You would know the galvanized finish is ready when it dulls to a greyish color instead of shiny/silvery. This might take different time intervals in different locations.

My two cents on doing both.

DJ
 
Dan,

Not 100% sure this will translate to boats. But in the Fence Manufacturing Industry, there is a known issue with the adhesion of powder coats and epoxy paints to freshly galvanized surfaces. One manufacturer of decorative estate gates in Ensenada, Mexico that is a leading importer to the US and Canadian market uses spray-flamed zinc on their decorative gates, while some Chinese companies use hot-dipped galvanization. Both have had issues of adhesion performances that were degraded due to zinc outgassing. With industrial-grade Chain Link manufacturing there were many failures associated with paints and powder coating processes over both the fabric, chainlink woven wire, and the posts and rails, and especially galvanized fittings.
...

That is great information! Thank you.

My guess as to why one did not see the use of flame sprayed zinc AND epoxy paint, was that it was either overkill, there was a problem painting the zinc, and/or it did not make money sense.

So it is at least a problem to pain the zinc.

Thanks,
Dan
 
A commercial fisherman friend who has had two steel purse seiners built talks about 'wheel abraiding' the steel plate and then immediately painting it with primer before the build starts. Wheel abraiding is a type of shot blasting. He says this has proven to be effective and is commonly done on steel boats
 
Ken, that is normally done on a horizontal wheel blast machine with steel shot or steel grit depending on the paint spec and then into a paint booth that applies a weldable primer, it is used at most large shipbuilding companies. There are also blast and paint shops regionally that will contract with smaller builders. Wheelabrator is one of the oldest centrifugal wheel blast machine manufacturers. FYI, The name Wheelabrator is used like Kleenex is for tissue ?.
 
Ken, that is normally done on a horizontal wheel blast machine with steel shot or steel grit depending on the paint spec and then into a paint booth that applies a weldable primer, it is used at most large shipbuilding companies. There are also blast and paint shops regionally that will contract with smaller builders. Wheelabrator is one of the oldest centrifugal wheel blast machine manufacturers. FYI, The name Wheelabrator is used like Kleenex is for tissue ?.

Great explanation...thanks
 
Bill sounds like you have some extensive knowledge of steel boats as well as others here in TF. I love steel. I was a welder all of my adult life. Can you or anyone else in this room tell me the top 3-5 steel trawlers made for quality,safety,dependability. I live on the east coast but have family in CA. and Alaska. Thanks
 
Another point about steel boat owners from my perspective: they all fit in what I call the "steel boat owner" mindset.

Almost all of my male steel boat owners (I have sold 50+ steel trawlers so that means approximately 100 owners) are ex-military, pilots, commercial fishing, engineers and combinations of the above. The bios are impressive and include a submarine captain, submarine engineer, a Navy fleet commander, Base commander, Deadliest Catch boatowner, Special Ops, Secret Service, the "Hurt Locker" soldier, etc. These are the guys that will only consider steel.

On a personal note: Don't I have a great job!! I'm so honored to be able to find boats for their retirement life. From the Fleet Commander to the airline pilot, I meet the finest of the finest.

Well said Judy, I am not an ex secret service officier of our DGSE but I can tell you that after 7 fiberglass boats ( both sailing and trawler), I do no regret my North Sea Trawler 57' Oc in steel! At the beginning I was a little afraid: how correct minor rusty spots? It is difficult to avoid it, especially in salt waters like Med... I remember watching Dutch owners, looking for their small pencils and little cans in dedicated lockers, like doctor ready to do some meticulous surgery... You need to be patient and slow.
Also, you must adopt a scheme and never change. As you say, with your great experience, keep a work boat look is not so bad. So instead, struggling with Alwgrip or other super shinny paints, I have decided to switch to commercial and profesional products:
- on a rusty spot:
- first , sand, clean etc
- and apply a product like Ferose ( mostly used in restauration of classic cars) ( or other rust converter)
- 2- apply a small coat of Jotun Jotamastic 87 or 90
- 3 - apply some epoxy mastic if necessar
- 4 - apply after that 2 to 3 coats of Jotamastic 87 or 90
- 5 - last, apply 2 to 3 coats of Jotun Hard Top XP with the tint of your choice.

And that s'it. For me it is less harrassing than polishing a gelcoat started to be faded.
Of course, in the Netherlands, I have seen georgous boats painted with Awlgrip. But Netherlands sea or waterways are mostly fresh water, the season is short, and in winter most of the yachts are under shed or completely protected from humidity rain or snow.
With my trawler, if an bloody covid regulation is not stopping us, we are making a lot of miles offshore.
As mentionned, what is crucial is the inside of the yacht.
With the unbelievable temps who have this year everywhere in Europe, I feel definitely more comfortable in my fully insulated trawler with special RAFA windows than in a plastic boat.
 
Well said Judy, I am not an ex secret service officier of our DGSE but I can tell you that after 7 fiberglass boats ( both sailing and trawler), I do no regret my North Sea Trawler 57' Oc in steel! At the beginning I was a little afraid: how correct minor rusty spots? It is difficult to avoid it, especially in salt waters like Med... I remember watching Dutch owners, looking for their small pencils and little cans in dedicated lockers, like doctor ready to do some meticulous surgery... You need to be patient and slow.
Also, you must adopt a scheme and never change. As you say, with your great experience, keep a work boat look is not so bad. So instead, struggling with Alwgrip or other super shinny paints, I have decided to switch to commercial and profesional products:
- on a rusty spot:
- first , sand, clean etc
- and apply a product like Ferose ( mostly used in restauration of classic cars) ( or other rust converter)
- 2- apply a small coat of Jotun Jotamastic 87 or 90
- 3 - apply some epoxy mastic if necessar
- 4 - apply after that 2 to 3 coats of Jotamastic 87 or 90
- 5 - last, apply 2 to 3 coats of Jotun Hard Top XP with the tint of your choice.

And that s'it. For me it is less harrassing than polishing a gelcoat started to be faded.
Of course, in the Netherlands, I have seen georgous boats painted with Awlgrip. But Netherlands sea or waterways are mostly fresh water, the season is short, and in winter most of the yachts are under shed or completely protected from humidity rain or snow.
With my trawler, if an bloody covid regulation is not stopping us, we are making a lot of miles offshore.
As mentionned, what is crucial is the inside of the yacht.
With the unbelievable temps who have this year everywhere in Europe, I feel definitely more comfortable in my fully insulated trawler with special RAFA windows than in a plastic boat.
Good approach IMO.


Regarding Awlgrip, that is what I have and after 20 years people still ask if she was just painted. A key to maintenance is the color, with white or light gray shades easy to repair and have them blend in with the aged paint around the repair area. My approach is similar to yours:


1. Dremel small areas to be repaired, 60 grit sand for larger areas. Note, 20 years, I've used a sander once on a larger repair area.


2. Apply wash coat of anti-corrosion primer. I use a no longer offered Awlgrip product, but I suspect any anti-corrosion product would do.


3. Apply Awlgrip high build primer with an artist's brush. Because Delfin is faired (epoxy over the steel), once I'm done dremeling or sanding, there is frequently a 20 mil divot that needs to be filled and the high build helps.


4. Sand the high build so none is left above the surrounding level of paint.


5. Apply 3M premium vinyl ester filler. Sand flat with 320 to surrounding paint, then reapply and sand until smooth.


6. If a larger area, apply another thin coat of high build primer to fill any defects, sanding marks, etc. I generally use a brush since the high build won't go through the airbrush without a lot of thinning.



7. Apply Awlgrip 545 primer with an Iwata airbrush.


8. Wet sand with 400 grit.


9. Apply Awlgrip top coat.


10. Wet sand with 600, then 1000, then 2000 to dull and remove overspray.


11. Buff with McGuire swirl remover polishing compound.


This sounds like a lot of steps, but each takes literally seconds to complete, so the total time investment to repair a ding might be 15 minutes, including time to clean the sprayer. Once an area is repaired, you're pretty hard pressed to find it again.


For the first time in 15 years, I'm having the whole boat buffed out with light polishing compound. The result is that she is about 90% as bright as she was when first painted 20 years ago.
 
Good approach IMO.


Regarding Awlgrip, that is what I have and after 20 years people still ask if she was just painted. A key to maintenance is the color, with white or light gray shades easy to repair and have them blend in with the aged paint around the repair area. My approach is similar to yours:


1. Dremel small areas to be repaired, 60 grit sand for larger areas. Note, 20 years, I've used a sander once on a larger repair area.


2. Apply wash coat of anti-corrosion primer. I use a no longer offered Awlgrip product, but I suspect any anti-corrosion product would do.


3. Apply Awlgrip high build primer with an artist's brush. Because Delfin is faired (epoxy over the steel), once I'm done dremeling or sanding, there is frequently a 20 mil divot that needs to be filled and the high build helps.


4. Sand the high build so none is left above the surrounding level of paint.


5. Apply 3M premium vinyl ester filler. Sand flat with 320 to surrounding paint, then reapply and sand until smooth.


6. If a larger area, apply another thin coat of high build primer to fill any defects, sanding marks, etc. I generally use a brush since the high build won't go through the airbrush without a lot of thinning.



7. Apply Awlgrip 545 primer with an Iwata airbrush.


8. Wet sand with 400 grit.


9. Apply Awlgrip top coat.


10. Wet sand with 600, then 1000, then 2000 to dull and remove overspray.


11. Buff with McGuire swirl remover polishing compound.


This sounds like a lot of steps, but each takes literally seconds to complete, so the total time investment to repair a ding might be 15 minutes, including time to clean the sprayer. Once an area is repaired, you're pretty hard pressed to find it again.


For the first time in 15 years, I'm having the whole boat buffed out with light polishing compound. The result is that she is about 90% as bright as she was when first painted 20 years ago.

You have a wonderful trawler! I do not want to divert this topic, but I would be very happy to know more about your "ketch" rig...
 
You have a wonderful trawler! I do not want to divert this topic, but I would be very happy to know more about your "ketch" rig...
When I bought Delfin, she was an empty hull with no masts. To restore her to original design, I added them back. The basic hull design had been built in Norway since the mid 19th century, and the masts were used for propulsion and the hauling of herring nets. I use the main to load/unload the Boston Whaler while the mizzen is used to load/unload a rowing and sailing dinghy from the top deck.


I'm having a foresail and main built as a get home and power boost option, as we're taking her to Hawaii next year. I should be able to do three knots off the wind under sail, and in the trades under power, reduce fuel consumption quite a bit.


Besides, without a foremast, what am I supposed to do with the crow's nest, which was the only part of the old masts that could be salvaged?
 
When I bought Delfin, she was an empty hull with no masts. To restore her to original design, I added them back. The basic hull design had been built in Norway since the mid 19th century, and the masts were used for propulsion and the hauling of herring nets. I use the main to load/unload the Boston Whaler while the mizzen is used to load/unload a rowing and sailing dinghy from the top deck.

I'm having a foresail and main built as a get home and power boost option, as we're taking her to Hawaii next year. I should be able to do three knots off the wind under sail, and in the trades under power, reduce fuel consumption quite a bit.

Besides, without a foremast, what am I supposed to do with the crow's nest, which was the only part of the old masts that could be salvaged?
Allow me to suggest that you have two matching high-cut headsails made with appropriate poles and run them wing and wing for the downwind
portion. They will require little tending underway with a neutral effect on steering.

This served me well for about 14 of the 17.5 day passage to Hawaii I once made.;)
 
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Allow me to suggest that you have two matching high-cut headsails made with appropriate poles and run them wing and wing for the downwind portion.

This served me well for about 14 of the 17.5 day passage to Hawaii I once made.;)
Yep. Did the same when I last sailed to Hawaii, and it is the schizz way to sail. I'm too lazy now to do that with Delfin. I always hated managing the huge poles on my sailboat, so I'll use just the foresail and main when I can do a broad reach, which is possible most of the way there if you turn west around Eureka.
 
Bill sounds like you have some extensive knowledge of steel boats as well as others here in TF. I love steel. I was a welder all of my adult life. Can you or anyone else in this room tell me the top 3-5 steel trawlers made for quality,safety,dependability. I live on the east coast but have family in CA. and Alaska. Thanks

I am not aware of any real steel yacht builders of any size in The Americas.
Many are built in Asia, now Turkey, and of course Europe, especially The Netherlands.
I only know enough about the boats built in the Netherlands to comment and I trust them. A steel built boat built right will outlast any other in my view, and one where shortcuts especially as it relates to coatings will be a lifelong PIA if you can even save it.
The hull below the waterline is critical and you should be certain of coatings. Upon purchasing both of mine with confirmed good audio gauge at survey, I blasted to white steel and coated immediately with zinc primer and multiple epoxy barrier coats. Good for a long time.

Take a look at Devalk Yacht Brokers and Elburg Yachting for listings of literally hundreds of good steel boats.

My first had a yachts finish above the waterline (Alwgrip 12 coats) and my current has a ‘workboat’ one part finish. I prefer the latter to maintain but the Blue Awlgrip hull was beautiful.
 
I am not aware of any real steel yacht builders of any size in The Americas.
Many are built in Asia, now Turkey, and of course Europe, especially The Netherlands.
I only know enough about the boats built in the Netherlands to comment and I trust them. A steel built boat built right will outlast any other in my view, and one where shortcuts especially as it relates to coatings will be a lifelong PIA if you can even save it.
The hull below the waterline is critical and you should be certain of coatings. Upon purchasing both of mine with confirmed good audio gauge at survey, I blasted to white steel and coated immediately with zinc primer and multiple epoxy barrier coats. Good for a long time.

Take a look at Devalk Yacht Brokers and Elburg Yachting for listings of literally hundreds of good steel boats.

My first had a yachts finish above the waterline (Alwgrip 12 coats) and my current has a ‘workboat’ one part finish. I prefer the latter to maintain but the Blue Awlgrip hull was beautiful.


The US does stand out as a market that doesn't offer domestically made steel boats. As you say, if prepped correctly and given pretty simple maintenance steel has so many advantages over other materials its hard to understand why this situation exists, but it certainly does.
 
I've been following this thread carefully. I have seen some steel trawlers that seem to be very good values, yet have been on the market for a while. Certainly there is an opportunity to get more for your money, compared to fiberglass.

In North America it seems the ownership risk of a well found steel trawler comes with resale. I don't want to own a boat that I can't reasonably sell when the time comes.

Thoughts?
 
I've been following this thread carefully. I have seen some steel trawlers that seem to be very good values, yet have been on the market for a while. Certainly there is an opportunity to get more for your money, compared to fiberglass.

In North America it seems the ownership risk of a well found steel trawler comes with resale. I don't want to own a boat that I can't reasonably sell when the time comes.

Thoughts?
. If you're buying used, any penalty for steel has probably already been paid by someone else. In other words, buy at a discount, sell at a discount.
 
DD 38 insulation

Hello Ric
I am building a steel DD 38 following George B strictly design , I even added some thicker material in the bow . I am planning to epoxy all the interior after sand it and then will apply 4” rock wool insulation . Do you think it will OK. I already have all the material.
 
I do not think rock wool would be suitable. Eventually it may leak out making you itch like crazy . Steel hulls usually spray on rigid foam.
 
Hello Ric
I am building a steel DD 38 following George B strictly design , I even added some thicker material in the bow . I am planning to epoxy all the interior after sand it and then will apply 4” rock wool insulation . Do you think it will OK. I already have all the material.
Firstly, welcome. You've come to the right place for boat build opinions!

I had mineral based wool insulation on my steel hull and I don't recommend
it. It seemed to have absorbed funky smells and wasn't pleasant to work around.
Ensolite or other non-flammable sheet cut to fit would be better and lots thinner.
4" seems very thick and would reduce the interior space on an already tight boat.

Good luck on the build, I'll be following if you post your progress.
I love DD's and have been on a few.
 
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I agree, rock wool would potentially be problematic. The thickness is one issue, the nature of the adherence to the epoxy and the potential for water entrapment and smells is another. Our DD has 2" sprayed foam applied to bare steel above the WL and epoxy coating below, where we can keep an eye on it for blebs or rusting.
Thicker plate at the bow is good especially if you are going off the Classic plans. Every bit of weight forward helps. We carry two 300' 7/16" chain rodes and two 165lb anchors plus 1300# of ballast in the forward bilge and forepeak. With all that, she sits on her lines. I think the original plans assumed a small engine and thinner plate at the transom, and even the unfinished boat was too light at the bow.
 
If you don't already know about this group you might consider joining. https://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/

In the for what it's worth column I worked aboard a steel boat built in the 60's that was insulated with rock wool. No problems whatsoever. However techniques have improved and as said up thread many now use spray foam.

On a new build I would blast in prep for epoxy and foam. Sanding is not as reliable a prep. The last thing you want under foam is for the coating to fail.
 
https://www.passagemaker.com/cruiser-reviews/cold-hard-steel

A good read with a section you are talking about. Specifically it mentions using only one coat of epoxy over the primed metal (interior) before spray foam. Apparently to many coats of epoxy doesn't allow the spray foam to stick to the metal, rather it adheres to the paint instead.
 
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