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Old 12-31-2013, 08:39 PM   #41
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What does that mean?



Some reading of the literature on natural gas fueled engines might be in order.

Sir respectfully but what is a natural fueled engine? Is this opposed to an UN-natural fueled engine?

Lets just compare two types of engine for a min. lets take a diesel and a gas engine making...oh say 350 HP. Now go buy the latest and greatest you can that will fit in say a 40 foot boat in a twin configuration,nothing fancy just go to any boat show.

I'll wait....


Ok cool... now look at what you have, of the two engines which has the most new technology in them. Which seems fairly unchanged over say the last 10-20 years? What engine is being refined seemingly every year to give greater power and better economy? What direction is Europe taking?

The gas engine is fine but due to the way it operates it is very limited in the way of further advancement (see stoichiometric mixture) and unless greater advancements in ceramics progresses they are really at the lean ratio limit and the compression limit given today's fuels and reduction in anti-knock additives. We really are at the peak in spark ignition engines for ground transportation, heck that's ok we were there in aviation in the late 50's when all the HP that could be wrung out of an engine reliably (or not) was reached. Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major

The point is simple, the money and research are going away from spark ignition and on to higher compression to use less refined fuel as well as Bio-fuel engines with better output and less emissions, these are the facts.

Diesel now outsells gas in EU and the trend is sharpley curving upward.

Vehicle Technologies Office: Fact #716: February 27, 2012 Diesels are more than Half of New Cars Sold in Western Europe

Just look at what the last 40 years has done for diesels as opposed to gas engines.

Since 2006, every car to win the famous endurance race the Audi R10 TDI, Peugeot 908 HDi FAP, Audi R15 TDI plus, Audi R18 TDI, and Audi R18 e-tron quattro burned diesel on the way to first place.

Diesel does get more fuel economy than gasoline, and not by a slim margin. Diesel is more than 33% more efficient than gasoline is when it comes to your fuel mileage. This means if you were to get for example, 30 miles to the gallon, a diesel equivalent engine would get 40 miles per gallon. Diesel needs to be run through a diesel engine, and diesel engines offer more torque than a gasoline engine. Torque allows for great acceleration, which also accounts for the great fuel economy numbers.



Will there be further advancement, sure the Ford EcoBoost is an example guess what they did, direct injection (DI) to allow higher compression (10.5:1) with peek boost pressure of 11.6 psi the spray of gas helps cool the cylinder and reduce the effects of the extra boost. BTW this is what a DI diesel has been doing for years including the after-cooled turbo charging of the intake charge.

I am intrigued by Homogenous charged compression ignition ( HCCI) Look it up.

I would also like to see the octane in ETOH utilized more, a great deal of power can be found with high compression and high turbo boost as found in Indy cars. Ford is looking at a duel fuel experiment using 22+ PSI of boost and injecting E85 during high boost periods from a separate tank but reliability seems to be a problem right now.

Variable valve timing has been around and for the most part matured.

Start stop systems, 6+ speed transmissions, variable displacement engines (4-6-8) has been done and helps a small bit at the expense of complexity. However these can also be applied to any diesel engine so not any real gas advantage.


Yes it seems a bit of reading IS in order.

G-day
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:44 AM   #42
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not by a slim margin. Diesel is more than 33% more efficient than gasoline is when it comes to your fuel mileage.

Fuel burn is energy , and diesel simply weighs more than gasoline which may account for much of the difference.

Cents per btu might be an interesting metric , which I think Nat Gas will win , as its not taxed to death ,,,YET!
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:21 AM   #43
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Sir respectfully but what is a natural fueled engine? Is this opposed to an UN-natural fueled engine?
Respectfully (and in this case it is difficult - but it is a New Year), if you have to ask, there is little point in my wasting time in what would obviously be a futile attempt at teaching you the fundamentals of power production by CI or SI engines which may use gaseous fuels or a combination of liquid and gaseous.

For readers who may be interested:

Caterpillar: Innovation Natural Gas Natural Gas 101
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:41 AM   #44
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Sorry for your grumpiness, perhaps the new year will be a good one for you.

The correct term is Compressed Nature Gas not natural fueled, I am very familiar.

CNG has 64% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline.

Diesel has 113% the energy of gasoline, per gallon.

CNG while an interesting fuel will not be in widespread use as a motor fuel in your lifetime and most likely not in mine. I'm 49 and suspect you are older.

It will never be a boat fuel, as a heaver then air compressed gas the dangers in its use will prohibit it.

(except in limited use as a outboard fuel granted, but that's not what we are talking about)

The energy content is also a limiting factor, for fixed station use (power plants) it is a fine fuel, makes for a nice BBQ as well.

Good discussion, thanks for your maturity

Regards,
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:39 AM   #45
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The correct term is Compressed Nature Gas not natural fueled, I am very familiar.
You are the one who said "natural fueled" so must not be all that familiar. "Nature Gas"???


Quote:
CNG while an interesting fuel will not be in widespread use as a motor fuel in your lifetime and most likely not in mine.
CNG is compressed natural gas, it is still natural gas, the C just describes the method of storage. CNG, LNG, it the same stuff and it IS used today as a fuel source for many vehicles of all sorts, there are more than 15 million natural gas fueled road vehicles in service worldwide today.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2...el-locomotives

Quote:
It will never be a boat fuel, as a heaver then air compressed gas the dangers in its use will prohibit it.
Wow ... Google "natural gas fueled ships" and select images. LNG tankers have used boil-off gas for fuel since the beginning of the trade. They are among the safest ships on the ocean. There is a rapidly growing number of natural gas fueled ferries, tugboats, and other commercial vessels.

LNG Fueled Vessels


Norway has at least 8 natural gas fueled ferries in operation now and more on the order books. Washington State Ferries has design approval now for natural gas conversions on part of their fleet.

The USCG has a group working on licensing and training standards for crews operating natural gas fueled vessels.

You lived longer than you thought. Now use the time you have left to learn about the things you think you know enough about to post long winded fairy tales.
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Old 01-01-2014, 09:27 AM   #46
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You are the one who said "natural fueled" so must not be all that familiar. "Nature Gas"???




CNG is compressed natural gas, it is still natural gas, the C just describes the method of storage. CNG, LNG, it the same stuff and it IS used today as a fuel source for many vehicles of all sorts, there are more than 15 million natural gas fueled road vehicles in service worldwide today.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2...el-locomotives



Wow ... Google "natural gas fueled ships" and select images. LNG tankers have used boil-off gas for fuel since the beginning of the trade. They are among the safest ships on the ocean. There is a rapidly growing number of natural gas fueled ferries, tugboats, and other commercial vessels.

LNG Fueled Vessels


Norway has at least 8 natural gas fueled ferries in operation now and more on the order books. Washington State Ferries has design approval now for natural gas conversions on part of their fleet.

The USCG has a group working on licensing and training standards for crews operating natural gas fueled vessels.

You lived longer than you thought. Now use the time you have left to learn about the things you think you know enough about to post long winded fairy tales.

Now you are acting like an obtuse old codger, you know I/we are talking about plesure boats and not ships and commercial ferries, wow must be a hoot having a dinner discussion with you.

I think I have proven that I do have a "working" knowledge of what I speak and you have proven true insight to your nature and need to be the site guru and a legend in you own mind.

I hope you well in life....now you may have the last word as I am done with further discussion with you, oh great one.
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Old 01-01-2014, 09:49 AM   #47
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For TM members who know of what I speak:This thread's action has turned into shades of "Marin". Marin, you lurking around in here? LOL

I suggest we all stay civil!!

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Old 01-01-2014, 10:13 AM   #48
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Now you are acting like an obtuse old codger, you know I/we are talking about plesure boats and not ships and commercial ferries, wow must be a hoot having a dinner discussion with you.
OK, if ship and ferry propulsion scares you off, how about the CNG fueled Perkins Sabre 6 cylinder marine engines used on the canal boats in Amsterdam? That same engine will fit nicely in practically any of the boats owned by members of this forum.

If that isn't good enough to convince you that your absurd statements are so far from reality ... how many of those 15+ million natural gas fueled road vehicles do you think use engines that won't fit in your boat?

Codger, no, just a guy who doesn't mind pointing out BS when someone is foolish enough to keep defending it or tries to discredit me with ad hominem (and false) statements. I don't need to attack you, your published statements do a better job of showing the level of your subject matter knowledge than I could ever do.
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