Stay sail

[tedted]

Hi all, Being an old sailor, the idea of a stay sail intrigues me. Has anyone designed and mounted a mast for a stay sail? Are there considerations that need to be made if I decide to go ahead with this?

I can see where a stay sail could be an asset in beam seas to reduce rolling. I've also heard that they can give a bit of a kick while motoring in the right conditions. Also I imagine they could settle the boat at anchor.

Besides that, I think they look really cool

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

Hello TedTed!

I agree with your comments. It does work in reducing rolling and that extra knot is ok with me. Kind regards, Normand

 

[Bob Cofer]

We have one for our 32' GB. Never noticed it made a difference any time we tried it. Looked pretty spiffy though.

 

[menzies]

It's for those that don't have room for, or want, a davit!

 

[bayview]

Wont help docking in any breeze. As a sailor you are familiar with the noise of a luffing sail when going to windward, that is what powerboats do.

 

[tedted]

Wont help docking in any breeze. As a sailor you are familiar with the noise of a luffing sail when going to windward, that is what powerboats do.

LOL....everywhere we went on a schedule with the sailboat the wind was dead on the nose. It really got disheartening. Our trawler will just be a sailboat that goes to windward a heck of a lot better

Maybe that's why I'd like a mast lol ....or is it homage to the wind gods???

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

 

[Gbinterim]

We have a Grand Banks 36 with a steadying sail. 20 years ago we gave up our sailboat, mind willing body says no, but we use our sail. On a beam reach we gain 1/2 knot of speed and it reduces the roll significantly. At anchor with a stiff breeze the boat only moves about 10 degrees off center each way eliminating the dancing effect at anchor. We have tested not employing the engine in 35 knots of wind to see what happens and the result is no forward progress, but the boat stays in a narrow arc head to wind. During that same experiment we allowed the boat to fall off and ran downwind at a speed of one knot helm control was poor. In the previous experiment a boom vang is a must. All in all we are happy that we have the option to use it and would have one on our next boat. We boat in Alaska and have plenty opportunity to use the sail.

 

[psneeld]

Anyone using one care to give the dimensions please?

 

[Wxx3]

We have a Grand Banks 36 with a steadying sail. 20 years ago we gave up our sailboat, mind willing body says no, but we use our sail. On a beam reach we gain 1/2 knot of speed and it reduces the roll significantly. At anchor with a stiff breeze the boat only moves about 10 degrees off center each way eliminating the dancing effect at anchor. We have tested not employing the engine in 35 knots of wind to see what happens and the result is no forward progress, but the boat stays in a narrow arc head to wind. During that same experiment we allowed the boat to fall off and ran downwind at a speed of one knot helm control was poor. In the previous experiment a boom vang is a must. All in all we are happy that we have the option to use it and would have one on our next boat. We boat in Alaska and have plenty opportunity to use the sail.

What's a "boom vang"?
How big is it? The sail?
etc.

I had previously heard that it was not that effective on the Krogen 42, but I do like the idea of 1 knot downwind .

I was just talking with Rustybarge today and he gave me an article about a square sail. Also looks interesting. I will talk with a rigger and get some ideas before I leave Europe.

I'm thinking of the 5000 nm I will have next year in the trade winds.

 

[Nomad Willy]

A staysil being loose footed would make a poor steadying sail. It's too dependant on being filled. A tight sail w a boom would be much more effective unless there was a beam wind. Then I would think the staysil should do fine.

Re steading sails and windage ballance, the steadying sail should be aft so the bow isn't blown off downwind. Also at anchor a large enough sail aft will reduce tremendiously sailing back and forth on the anchor rode. Ideally I suppose a sizable sail like the aftermost sail on a yawl would be best ... just above a davit mounted dinghy.

And if the sail was big enough and far enough aft one could shut down and drift head into the wind w a calm cockpit. I had an OB boat once that did that w/o any sail at all. That was a plus but the price to pay was bad handling on following seas.

 

[markpierce]

Two staysails are more effective than one.

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

 

[Bluto]

@Wxx3
A boom vang is a length-adjustable support that runs from lower on the mast to a point out on the boom. The ones I'm familiar with are hydraulically adjustable to support the boom and allow adjustments to the sail's shape.
The Nordy MS56 (muh dreamboat) uses a heavy Leisure Furl boom with the main furled in it. The vang is used to take the load off the cable (shroud?) out at the end, and this boom is also used to bring the dinghy up to the boat deck.
It needs a little help.

I read it is to be set 1.8 degrees below horizontal on those boats.
Pretty heavy unit, I guess.

 

[bayview]

LOL....everywhere we went on a schedule with the sailboat the wind was dead on the nose. It really got disheartening. Our trawler will just be a sailboat that goes to windward a heck of a lot better

Maybe that's why I'd like a mast lol ....or is it homage to the wind gods???

Our boat club always included sailboats so we would know wind direction months in advance, on the nose. []

 

[Phil Fill]

We have a steady sail. The main benefit of the sail us to reduce the swing at anchor. Under way there was no benefit. The sail size is the full height of the mast, 15 ft, and width of the boom, 12 ft. Sail are where an option for some tawlers and some trawler where added. The rw 58 did not and was added later. sails where add to a sister rw 58 and changed to a motor sailor, which significant increase the range.

True story.

When we, my wife, bought the eagle, we were newbies, and did not know under stand what she bought. Going thru all the stuff, we found canvas for the back deck, and SAIL Not knowing we figured we could sail the Eagle. So went out on a windy day in the middle or Lake Union. After several unsuccessful attempt.

 

[gaston]

Two staysails are more effective than one.

Do you need to duck under the sail when you change direction

 

[markpierce]

Do you need to duck under the sail when you change direction

Ha! I'm in the pilothouse not having my skin dried/fried to imitate an alligator
(although believe I made that photo while Otto drove the boat).

 

[koliver]

Typically, a steadying, or "staysail" on a trawler is smaller than the sail for a small dinghy, say eg a Laser. The effect on a Laser is to make this dinghy, weighing 150 lb all in, go fairly well. To translate that to a trawler weighing upwards of 20 tons, or more than 250 times as much, is to get roughly 1/250 times the speed a Laser is able to get, from the wind. So if a Laser gets to 6 knots in a certain wind, your trawler will get a benefit of 1/250 x 6 = 0.02 knots, less deductions for a less efficient hull shape.

To use the sail for steadying, is to align it with the centerline of the boat and when the boat wants to roll, the sail is there to resist.

To use the sail for wind cocking while at anchor, the sail must be aft of the pivot point of the boat, or for best results, at the stern, where the sail will offer windage when the boat swings, that will pull the stern back, tightening the anchor rode and keeping the boat pointed closer to straight ahead. While pointing straight ahead, the sail offers no windage, so there will be some falling off and hunting for direction.

Unless your trawler has a good location for a sail, hoisting will be a total waste of resources. Boats set up for sails, like Mark's, allow the hoisting of a large enough sail area to offer measurable help if downwind in the trades, mounted out in front, where they pull the boat, but can't be used for steadying or for wind cocking.

The small sails sometimes seen on GBs and similar boats are generally too small to offer any assistance travelling, too far forward to help holding position in an anchorage, and too small to do an effective job of dampening roll.

 

[psneeld]

Which is why I asked those using and seeing positive results...would you please post some dimentions.

 

[bayview]

a boom vang hold the boom down and controls the shape of the sail under certain conditions. Without it the boom tends to rise up and change sail shape when the wind moves aft. I would expect the sail to be cut flat as apposed to sails intended to fill with wind for propulsion.

 

[cafesport]

As a recovering sailor I'll throw some numbers up so my good friend Richard can stop wasting his time. I'm guessing his boat weighs in around 50,000 pounds. Most blue water sailing boats have a sail area to displacement ratio of around 15. Cheoy Lee's famous offshore 53 motorsailer is around 10 and Jim krogen's (yes that one) krogen 38 was a high 16. So lets say Richard wants to be halfway in between at 5. That would be come out to around 425 sq ft of sail which is about 7.7 hp in 15 knots of wind. Doable you say with a 20 x 20 square rigged sail. Here's the problem, the trades average 35 so that's more like 42 hp. The squalls come through at 60 plus or close to 123 hp. The forces on the rigging are 16 times higher at 60 vs. 15. The wind force on the sailcloth is over 6700 pounds oh and what's to there beneath the boat to keep her upright? To further add insult to injury under loading the lehman is going to cost you more in the end.


Spell check via iPhone.

 

[Wxx3]

Thank you KOliver and Ed,

I did want to throw it out there and the results seem predictable. In other words, if it was such a great idea everyone would be doing it and Paul Scott would not have to ask for the dimensions.

Also, a great point about the engine and mast. Both are doing well, why f.. them up. The mast and it's current 6 stays have done well in controlling the forces of the paravanes. The mast and salon roof show no signs of any stress.

So why add another force that could add some slight speed, at the expense of great risks and downsides.

 

[cardude01]

Wonder if this would pull a trawler downwind?

http://www.parachuteshop.com/sailing_downwind_parachut1.htm

 

[psneeld]

Huge difference in a steadying sail and one wanted for propulsion.

For steadying, a small force at the higher points of the mast is all you need, from wind or rolling moment or both.

Floppper stoppers are tiny in comparison and help, no necessarily eliminate roll...that's all I am looking for, not sailing in a squall.

 

[Wxx3]

Wonder if this would pull a trawler downwind?

Sailing Downwind with a Parachut

Yes, I thought of it too.

Ed was kind enough to point out to me that wind is not steady therefore, as soon as the wind dies for 30 seconds, the parachute is in the water and you are overrunning it and its line before you can say, WTF

Possibly for a sailboat it may make sense, since their autopilot is also attuned to the wind.

As I stated above, I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns.

 

[caltexflanc]

Like a lot of ideas in boating, there is a reason why you don't see them deployed or even equipped on 99.9% of the "trawlers" out there. I speculate it is "too much hassle, too little reward".

Heck, we were shocked, then got used to, seeing many many cruising sailboats not using their sails under great sailing conditions, or rolly conditions, instead rolling around like crazy, motoring along.

 

[CaptTom]

Heck, we were shocked, then got used to, seeing many many cruising sailboats not using their sails under great sailing conditions, or rolly conditions, instead rolling around like crazy, motoring along.

But were they mono-hulls or cats? That debate sucked up some bandwidth over on the "other" forum.

But I think it's safe here to say I've observed the same thing. Outside the mouths of harbors, which are filled with day-sailors, we typically see cruising sailboats motoring, regardless of conditions. We have a name for them: a power boat with a stick. We actually make a comment about it on those rare occasions we're offshore or coasting away from ports and see a boat actually sailing.

Just don't tell the sailors, they'll never let me post on "their" forum again!

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

The sail rig is only intended to be sufficient for get-home purposes in the event of engine trouble and to also act as steadying sails.


Greatheart 36

 

[bilge53]

One use not mentioned is that a steadying sail when underway (and depending on wind conditions) will induce a slight heal to the downwind side. Healing significantly reduces rolling. In most cases any advantage in the form of propulsion is very limited except with wind aft of the beam and then is minimal.