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Old 04-13-2016, 08:58 PM   #21
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Which is why I asked those using and seeing positive results...would you please post some dimentions.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:29 AM   #22
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a boom vang hold the boom down and controls the shape of the sail under certain conditions. Without it the boom tends to rise up and change sail shape when the wind moves aft. I would expect the sail to be cut flat as apposed to sails intended to fill with wind for propulsion.
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Old 04-14-2016, 11:17 AM   #23
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As a recovering sailor I'll throw some numbers up so my good friend Richard can stop wasting his time. I'm guessing his boat weighs in around 50,000 pounds. Most blue water sailing boats have a sail area to displacement ratio of around 15. Cheoy Lee's famous offshore 53 motorsailer is around 10 and Jim krogen's (yes that one) krogen 38 was a high 16. So lets say Richard wants to be halfway in between at 5. That would be come out to around 425 sq ft of sail which is about 7.7 hp in 15 knots of wind. Doable you say with a 20 x 20 square rigged sail. Here's the problem, the trades average 35 so that's more like 42 hp. The squalls come through at 60 plus or close to 123 hp. The forces on the rigging are 16 times higher at 60 vs. 15. The wind force on the sailcloth is over 6700 pounds oh and what's to there beneath the boat to keep her upright? To further add insult to injury under loading the lehman is going to cost you more in the end.


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Old 04-14-2016, 01:17 PM   #24
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Thank you KOliver and Ed,

I did want to throw it out there and the results seem predictable. In other words, if it was such a great idea everyone would be doing it and Paul Scott would not have to ask for the dimensions.

Also, a great point about the engine and mast. Both are doing well, why f.. them up. The mast and it's current 6 stays have done well in controlling the forces of the paravanes. The mast and salon roof show no signs of any stress.

So why add another force that could add some slight speed, at the expense of great risks and downsides.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:48 PM   #25
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Wonder if this would pull a trawler downwind?

http://www.parachuteshop.com/sailing..._parachut1.htm
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:49 PM   #26
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Huge difference in a steadying sail and one wanted for propulsion.

For steadying, a small force at the higher points of the mast is all you need, from wind or rolling moment or both.

Floppper stoppers are tiny in comparison and help, no necessarily eliminate roll...that's all I am looking for, not sailing in a squall.
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Old 04-14-2016, 02:03 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Wonder if this would pull a trawler downwind?

Sailing Downwind with a Parachut
Yes, I thought of it too.

Ed was kind enough to point out to me that wind is not steady therefore, as soon as the wind dies for 30 seconds, the parachute is in the water and you are overrunning it and its line before you can say, WTF

Possibly for a sailboat it may make sense, since their autopilot is also attuned to the wind.

As I stated above, I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns.
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Old 04-14-2016, 02:37 PM   #28
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Like a lot of ideas in boating, there is a reason why you don't see them deployed or even equipped on 99.9% of the "trawlers" out there. I speculate it is "too much hassle, too little reward".

Heck, we were shocked, then got used to, seeing many many cruising sailboats not using their sails under great sailing conditions, or rolly conditions, instead rolling around like crazy, motoring along.
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Old 04-14-2016, 04:14 PM   #29
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Heck, we were shocked, then got used to, seeing many many cruising sailboats not using their sails under great sailing conditions, or rolly conditions, instead rolling around like crazy, motoring along.
But were they mono-hulls or cats? That debate sucked up some bandwidth over on the "other" forum.

But I think it's safe here to say I've observed the same thing. Outside the mouths of harbors, which are filled with day-sailors, we typically see cruising sailboats motoring, regardless of conditions. We have a name for them: a power boat with a stick. We actually make a comment about it on those rare occasions we're offshore or coasting away from ports and see a boat actually sailing.

Just don't tell the sailors, they'll never let me post on "their" forum again!
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:14 AM   #30
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The sail rig is only intended to be sufficient for get-home purposes in the event of engine trouble and to also act as steadying sails.


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Old 04-15-2016, 09:59 AM   #31
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One use not mentioned is that a steadying sail when underway (and depending on wind conditions) will induce a slight heal to the downwind side. Healing significantly reduces rolling. In most cases any advantage in the form of propulsion is very limited except with wind aft of the beam and then is minimal.
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:44 AM   #32
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But were they mono-hulls or cats? That debate sucked up some bandwidth over on the "other" forum.

But I think it's safe here to say I've observed the same thing. Outside the mouths of harbors, which are filled with day-sailors, we typically see cruising sailboats motoring, regardless of conditions. We have a name for them: a power boat with a stick. We actually make a comment about it on those rare occasions we're offshore or coasting away from ports and see a boat actually sailing.

Just don't tell the sailors, they'll never let me post on "their" forum again!
As a retired sailor I have to say on Lake Erie, A true sailor today is a rare breed. We kept our boat at a sailing club with 300 keel boats. 90% sat on any given day gathering scum on their keels. The ones that did get out had sails up only on the rare perfect day. There was only one boat (not us) that were real sailors. I was constantly in awe of them. We'd be heading home under power with head on 25 knot winds in stormy conditions. There they'd be beating into the storms happy as clams waving and smiling???

My wife and I played a little game trying to figure out why we'd be seeing boats sails down motoring in fantastic conditions. We finally realized that we saw them in the greatest numbers on Sunday around noon. We finally realized that they were coming back from the Islands after a night of excessive revelry. A hung over captain and a VERY angry first mate. Oooooh, I wouldn't wanna be on that boat either!!
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Old 04-15-2016, 02:34 PM   #33
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In 2004, the Caribbean 1500 organizations sponsored a "Bermuda Rally" going from Hampton, VA to Bermuda and return. There were about 20 sailboats and 5 trawlers that attempted the trip. Of the 5 trawlers, one was a power-cat, one had stabilizers, one had a "steadying sail" and 2 had nothing. They were just regular trawlers with no form of stabilization. 3 trawlers completed the trip. The 2 trawlers without stabilization only made it barely into the Gulf stream and the rolling was so violent that they both had to turn back. I spoke to the owner of the trawler with the steadying sail in Bermuda and he indicated the roll was dampened sufficiently that it was not bad at all crossing the Gulf stream. What is "not bad" may be open to individual interpretation, but it was clear to me that the sail worked. BTW I was on a 34' sailboat and the crossing for us was mostly uneventful.
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Old 04-15-2016, 02:51 PM   #34
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Our boat is equipped from the factory to fly a steady sail. We don't have one on board. Our boat with a full complement of water (300 gallons) and fuel (600 gallons) and all of our "stuff" weighs about 41,000 pounds. I have no experience sailing, except for a little sailing sabot in my youth, or with a steady sail.

However, I'll bet dollars to donuts that we wouldn't see the slightest benefit in propulsion or rolling if we flew a dinky 80 square feet of fabric from our mast and boom! Heck, we've got four times that in raised hull, house, and flying bridge above the water line.

Where we would expect to see the benefit of a stay sail is at anchor in a wind (and probably the same direction as the predominant wave pattern). Like an arrow with feathers, I would hope to be held bow into the wind and waves.

Our assumption is supported by the folks we know with similar boats who have gone before us! So, we'll save the cost of a sail and put it to better use, like beer.
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Old 04-15-2016, 03:42 PM   #35
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Ray,
With the weight of 600gal of fuel, 300gal of water and two engines weighing about 5000lbs each along w your rather wide beam Mahalo Moi should be ... well quite steady.
I agree w your acessment and will add that not many steadying sails are very effective unless abeam to the wind. And then changing course would probably deliver better results for a level ride that the sail.
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Old 04-15-2016, 03:46 PM   #36
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Usually that's when steadying sails are the most useful...when the wind (and therefore probably the seas) is on the beam. The stronger the wind, the larger the seas, but also the more effective even a smaller sail is.


Yes...many trawler masts are not set up well for steadying sails..but that doesn't mean steadying sails aren't very effective when sized and used correctly.


The problem is...it seems most just don't understand the whole concept from need to execution.


Changing course isn't always an option.
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Old 04-15-2016, 04:32 PM   #37
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"most just don't understand"

Hmmmmm then some do? I could guess that's you but that's probably what you meant. You have the floor.
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Old 04-15-2016, 04:39 PM   #38
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My story is in post 34 and I'm stickin' to it! Besides, if it's a, "stronger wind and larger seas", I'll most likely be at rest in a slip somewhere enjoying the beer that I save by not buying a stay sail. LOL!
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:39 PM   #39
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"most just don't understand"

Hmmmmm then some do? I could guess that's you but that's probably what you meant. You have the floor.
Yep, and you are not one.

As statdd, a little like ballast can go as long ways at the right time if in the right place.

Just sime stuff if you study it.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:45 AM   #40
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Hello psneeld,

I refer to your kind request, I do not have the measurement at this time. I will go on the boat on the 24th of april and will take measurements and photographs.

My steading sail was initially «*an experiment*»created with an old genoa from a Morgan 38 that was given to me by a friend. That experiment was to reduce the rolling only. Not for anchoring nor for getting home either.

I hand cut the sail in order to reuse the head, the tack and the clew, hand sown it and used aluminium pop rivets with washers to reinforce the stitches.

First, I measured the distance with the existing halyard on my mast by attaching a rope and I measured the distance of the luff (leading edge) from on foot from the top of the mast pulley to the since I did not have a gooseneck I made a cunningham rigged on the luff of the mainsail to help control the sail shape.

Then I measured the distance for the foot of the sail from the tack to the clew which is the length of the boom. I ensured that the clew was attached with an outhaul.

I had to cut the sail in order to have the leach be straight (not curved) and I correctly tensioned, the leech of the steadying sail by adjusting the boom height as the leach may "flutter" noisily as this sail did not have a leech line for the purpose of tightening the leech to prevent this fluttering.

I must mention that this experiment was necessary to reduce the rolling when I crossed Lake Champlain from New-York side (Willsboro Bay) to Vermont side (Burlington) ( Shelburne Bay) when having North or South winds.

I must adjust my course like a sailboat in order to either have a close reaching, beam reaching or broad reaching and I can attest that it is more pleasant for the admiral and crew taking this tack... Who said trawlers could not tack?

It does make a difference while cruising as the rolling is controled and I do get an extra statute mile per hour when I am reaching and running from the wind.

This being said I do not and will not use it at an anchorage as it is not set up for this purpose as the mast is closer to the pivoting point of the vessel. So far I am quite happy with the results and it looks cool also.

It my opinion that all vessels are differents and it is my observation, psneeld, the your rig would not provide rolling prevention at the same time it could help as a stay sail at anchor.

The best way to get a result is make the experiments.

I hope this helps understanding.

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