Stabilizing sail

[C lectric]

That boat/ship [post 29] with the sail looks a LOT like a vessel that was shore tied in various places around Howe Sound for a bunch of years. The owner I was told , was marking time untill he could finish it. When I saw it , it was pretty rough. Looks like he or someone did finish it.

Tis a North Sea type trawler. Good looking boat. This looks like the same vessel, other than colours, but I cannot say for sure. Glad to see it being used.

 

[Jimbo2015]

MY experience with the equipment that came with the boat under conditions I experienced. I don't know or care how to "trim a sail" and wouldn't have dreamed of replacing that "pathetic" sail with anything larger.

Therefore, like I guessed you didn't know (or care) how to trim it,
so your uneducated experience is of little import.

 

[BruceK]

Therefore, like I guessed you didn't know (or care) how to trim it,
so your uneducated experience is of little import.

That`s not very nice.
With the Coot pics, the boom seems to just provide an outhaul for the clew. Do any of the sail setups on trawlers use a track on the boom? Or the mast?
My IG has no sail facility at all.

 

[Jimbo2015]

Tracks on a boom are a thing of the past, they use a block & tackle usually inside the boom to adjust the clew, from flat to perhaps 8-10" of curve.

 

[Grae]

Greetings,
Had a stay sail on a previous boat (34' Marine Trader). Flew it a couple of times and it only seemed to work in a rear quartering breeze stiff enough to put a slight heel on the boat. About 24 sq feet if I recall. I tried the "right of way" ploy with my boating friends on several occasions whilst "sailing" but they OBVIOUSLY were unaware of COLREGS and replied with no end of insults and ribald comments....Boors!
The Admiral said the boom got in her way so it was used very infrequently.

Twenty four square feet is only 6ft x 4ft. Sail being (say) 8ft high on a 6ft boom. Did you mean 24ft square?
In NZ waters a sailboat with engine running (sails up or not) is considered a power boat, so no right of way.

 

[cardude01]

Therefore, like I guessed you didn't know (or care) how to trim it,
so your uneducated experience is of little import.

And your snotty responses are also "of little import" here on this forum IMO.

Treat people how you want to be treated. We are like a little family here, so BE NICE.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. G. Yup, 8' high by 6' along the boom is about the size as I remember. So a square that size is 48 sq' (L X W). The triangular sail area would be about half that would it not? I fully appreciate the dinky size but given the size of the mast and boom, it's the largest that would fit in the space AND it came with the boat. I suppose I could have extended my mast and boom to a ludicrous,unsafe size and used a humongous sail and gained, what?, another knot or 2, the ability to motor along at a very uncomfortable angle to the point of capsize but I purchased a power boat. NOT a motor sailer or sail boat. Horses for courses.
Those vessels that have the mechanism/equipment/design to hoist a larger sail and how large, I have no idea, would most probably achieve some modicum of stabilization and minimization of hunting at anchor as evidenced by the anecdotal posts above.
As I mentioned in post #22 I did experience some effect but for me, as stated, it wasn't worth the effort other than the "giggle" factor.
As far as trimming? To what purpose with a 24sq.' sail? "...uneducated experience is of little import..." For sure. Ignorance is bliss.
The area we used to boat in had the same stipulation that a sailboat under engine power was also considered a motor boat regardless of how much sail it had up and I'm positive none of the former sailors here on TF ever abused ANY right-of-way laws but they most assuredly weren't part of the sailing fraternity I used to encounter.

 

[Pdeli]

A steady sail will do little or nothing about wakes. Unless perhaps the wind is blowing strong and the boat is already pinned over very hard to one side.

What about the roll? Would a steadying sail not slow the roll? Sister boats seem to think so, although I have yet to verify this.

We displace 10 tons and have 3000# of ballast in our keel. Although the sail would be small, it would seem that is would add some air resistance (and slow the roll) even without a wind

 

[AusCan]

What about the roll? Would a steadying sail not slow the roll? Sister boats seem to think so, although I have yet to verify this.

We displace 10 tons and have 3000# of ballast in our keel. Although the sail would be small, it would seem that is would add some air resistance (and slow the roll) even without a wind

I think you may have missed the first page of replies.

Without wind, a stabilizing sail has minimal effect. It needs a substantial force (wind force X sail area) pushing against the boat's righting motion.
Enough that the force of the waves rolling under the boat becomes insignificant in comparison.

 

[kolive]

We owned a Willard 30/4 or Mk 4 for a few years. It had a deep draft for a Willard of 4'11" and 18" of cast iron keel bolted on. Our first trip was from Seattle to Desolation Sound and we crossed the Strait of Georgia twice from Nanaimo to Madeira Park and back. Both times using the steadying sail and both times with the typical winds on the beam after 10 AM. We did not have to tack like All the other boats we saw to quarter into the wind waves. The highest waves were in the 3-5' range so it wasn't as rough as it can get out there but the sail almost completely negated the beam seas. We drove from the flybridge the entire time and rocked like a hobby horse for the crossings.
Do they work? In this case I have to say yes on this boat it worked great. We continued to use it as long as we owned it and the current owner uses it too.

 

[Jimbo2015]

Keith do you use one on your GB

 

[Pdeli]

I think you may have missed the first page of replies.

Without wind, a stabilizing sail has minimal effect. It needs a substantial force (wind force X sail area) pushing against the boat's righting motion.
Enough that the force of the waves rolling under the boat becomes insignificant in comparison.

I did see all of the previous posts, but it generally seemed to me they were talking about "wind velocity" rather than simply "air resistance". Obviously the two are related, but several of our sisterships swear by them.

We have a pretty quick, disruptive roll, based on Dave Gerr's explanations, so I'm looking for ways to reduce that. Bilge keels would be much more expensive, and moving weight higher does not seem reasonably possible, so right now my focus is on the sail.

Later this year I'll have a chance to check out two of our fleet with and without sails, so I'll see what the results of that is.

Phil

 

[kolive]

Jimbo, I have not made one for my GB but have seriously wondered about it. I have seen a couple of GB's with them deployed but have not had the chance to talk with anyone yet. Maybe this thread will be the platform.

My interest is with someone who might have actually used one on a GB, not ANY theory on whether it should or should not work. That just gets too exhausting for me to want to discuss and leaves too many doors open for interpretations.

I do not intend to use it as a sail for propulsion as I am aware that it takes a different rigging to make that safe. I did Ryan it on the Willard for about 10 minutes with a wind from the stern and put the boat in neutral to see what would happen as we were heading up to Princess Louisa. We managed a tad over 2 knots but is was a very short experiment and I did not want to stress the mast and minimal rigging on the Willard.

 

[AusCan]

I did see all of the previous posts, but it generally seemed to me they were talking about "wind velocity" rather than simply "air resistance". Obviously the two are related, but several of our sisterships swear by them.

We have a pretty quick, disruptive roll, based on Dave Gerr's explanations, so I'm looking for ways to reduce that. Bilge keels would be much more expensive, and moving weight higher does not seem reasonably possible, so right now my focus is on the sail.

Later this year I'll have a chance to check out two of our fleet with and without sails, so I'll see what the results of that is.
Phil

Phil, I've read up bit on your boat. I like them a lot.

Here is an explanation of the hull design and motion of the LN Tug by the designer, Jim Bachus.

Full article: Jim Backus Comments - Lord Nelson Victory Tug (LNVT)

"Another feature of the design is slight roll created by the turn in the bilge. The
tug has a soft turn to the bilge and as such she does roll slightly, but Loren wanted the
design to cruise for good distances and we were concerned with a snap roll as it would
have an effect on the helmsman due to the height above the DWL of the helm station. I
have heard some people didnʼt like the roll, but after hours at the wheel of a snap roll,
hard chine boat, I think they would change their minds."

There is also some suggestions here for reducing rolling on VLN Tugs. http://lnvt.wikidot.com/tug-faq

Edit:
It appears you are probably aware of this info, as I notice that you are a moderator on the site.
Well done on the setup of the forum & site.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Keith,
That Willard went out for a few days and came back all clean and w pretty blue bottom paint.

Re the steadying sail IMO the GB is too stiff to get full benifits from a steadying sail. If your GB was 2' narrower it would be good w the sail. If it was big and skookum with a strong mast and rigging it would work but IMO only rounded hull boats get really big bennies from the steadying sail.
See on the Lobsterboat thread the sail aft I believe is primarily for windage ballance. Obviously a sail mounted far enough aft can make a boat head up into the wind. I had a light OB cruiser that did that w no sail. Just shallow and flat aft w no keel. Was great for stopping out in the big open spaces to take a break out of the wind and usually heading into the seas if any.

I don't know why that Willard has such a big keel ... do you?

 

[kolive]

Eric,

The Willard has the big keel because it was ordered that way by the then V.P. Of Willard, Jack Hochadel. I actually think the hull is the 8-ton cutter hull with the above water section a powerboat cabin. Interesting combo, very sea worthy and the huge 4' rudder allows it great slow speed manueverability.

She looks great with the fresh paint, came out of the water pretty darn clean too. When we stripped her to gel coat 4 years ago the work paid off. Epoxy barrier coat and good surface prep. No blisters ever.

 

[Moonfish]

Here is a link to a short video of Panope making good Westward progress in the Strait of Juan de Fuca en-route to Barkley sound https://youtu.be/WFnZx1ehStI

Cool video! I've seen your boat around here (Port Townsend/Ludlow) and have always thought she's very pretty.

As far as a steadying sail on our boat, we'd definitely have to reinforce shrouds and probably install chainplates to handle the loads even a modest sail would generate. We have been enough situations (usually quartering wind/waves abaft the beam) where a steadying sail more than likely would have provided some roll relief. However, that would be a little ways down the old priority list at this point...

 

[Jimbo2015]

As far as reinforcing the chain plates, don't think that's too difficult with the small sq ' of sail area.

Something like that on the cabin wall should be adequate provided the area isn't cored.




More importantly is the mast base downward load, that load needs to be transferred to something substantial.

Also when the sail is under load the leeward shrouds should have a bit of tension not swinging in the breeze.

 

[Panope]

Cool video! I've seen your boat around here (Port Townsend/Ludlow) and have always thought she's very pretty....

Thanks, Moonfish.

Are you moored in P.T.?

I am currently in the main P.T. Marina on the linear dock. Stop by and say hello if you see me futzing around on the boat.

Steve

 

[Tidahapah]

I have a couple of sails on my boat and they are useful for both steadying and power.
OK I don't point all that well but with the wind on the quarter she gets reduced fuel consumption a for the same speed.
I am still really coming to terms with the rag game but so far it has all been positive.
Used them a fair bit on my trip north from Tasmania early this year and really stabilised the boat with out having to deploy the fish.
Actually don't have any photos of the vessel under sail.

 

[BruceK]

Tracks on a boom are a thing of the past, they use a block & tackle usually inside the boom to adjust the clew, from flat to perhaps 8-10" of curve.

Not true here, and considering your posting style, not accepted in relation to USA practice either.

 

[Pdeli]

Phil, I've read up bit on your boat. I like them a lot.

Here is an explanation of the hull design and motion of the LN Tug by the designer, Jim Bachus.

Full article: Jim Backus Comments - Lord Nelson Victory Tug (LNVT)

"Another feature of the design is slight roll created by the turn in the bilge. The
tug has a soft turn to the bilge and as such she does roll slightly, but Loren wanted the
design to cruise for good distances and we were concerned with a snap roll as it would
have an effect on the helmsman due to the height above the DWL of the helm station. I
have heard some people didnʼt like the roll, but after hours at the wheel of a snap roll,
hard chine boat, I think they would change their minds."

There is also some suggestions here for reducing rolling on VLN Tugs. Tug FAQ's - Lord Nelson Victory Tug (LNVT)

Edit:
It appears you are probably aware of this info, as I notice that you are a moderator on the site.
Well done on the setup of the forum & site.

--------

To just add a bit to your comments, Backus originally designed these boats with low, outboard, ballast, but the builder (a sail boater) thought that the boat would be more stable with center, low, ballast and so he changed the design to his liking. The Backus design would apparently have been more comfortable, and so the "slight" roll mentioned above would have been true.

While we now know where all but one of these LNVT boats are, we only know of one that has the low,outboard, ballast as Backus originally designed it. The rest (as far as we know) have the center, keel, ballast. That also means a snappier roll than Backus intended.

So in the end the LNVT's have a snappier roll than most feel is comfortable.

Phil

 

[FF]

"I am still really coming to terms with the rag game but so far it has all been positive."

Many starting sailors will over sheet most sails.

To "see" the wind a wool telltale or the stick on ones do a great job.

It is usually amazing how far the sail can be freed and function better.

We use a fully battened main on our 90/90 as it can inshore motor directly into the wind with no hassles.

 

[AKDoug]

Great thread! I have been watching it grow, since I am considering adding a sail to my mast and boom. I want it to keep my boat pointed into the wind at anchor, not for steadying. I use the boom to drape a tarp over for rain protection and the beam winds beat it pretty hard. I am looking for the "lawn dart" effect to keep it pointed into the wind and minimize swing, figuring maybe 15 square feet would give me the effect I am looking for. Anyone here use their steadying sail at anchor for that purpose?

 

[bshanafelt]

my boat has rounded bilges and this small sail is marginally effective at stabilizing in beam seas.

It really should be much larger to work well for stabilizing, but then the rigging would need to be much more robust to accommodate.

I use it regularly as a riding sail at anchor. Even though it would be better if more aft, it works nicely to limit the swing.

I am guessing this sail is around 20 s.f.

 

[cafesport]

If the boat in question doesn't have a keel designed for sailing then adding more wind age aloft to steady roll in beam seas will create a considerable amount of leeway. To dampen roll 5 degrees you may end up having to beat an extra ten miles into head seas. Also due to a boats forward speed an apparent wind on the beam and beam seas will never occur together so even an oversized steadying sail will yield ever diminishing returns.


Via iPhone.

 

[Jimbo2015]

care to explain how you reached that conclusion?

how do prams sail then or motorsailers?

There's really no leeway, the motor keeps pushing at say 8 knots of boat speed.

Lets say there's no wind, your apparent wind is also 8 knots, if there's wind your apparent wind (the wind that you feel while moving increases), as it increases the angle of the wind moves forward. As it does you trim in the stabilizing sail.

Moreover, at most we're talking about 75-100sq ' of sail area not enough to produce leeeway in a boat this heavy with a diesel pushing it in one direction.

with that being said, I'm a sailor without hands on experience on doing this. But I'm certain it will stabilize any boat, but it's not just set up the sail and forget it, if you change your point in direction 10-15 degrees or more expect to re-trim that sail to be effective.

 

[roger howell]

Hi,
We are big advocates of a steaming sail. We set it whenever we are offshore in our GB36. While it certainly does not eliminate the roll, we think it ameliorates the "snap" which plagues the hard chine GB. I added more roach and full battens to the sail in an effort to gain sail area. Most importantly, since we came from sail, it gives the crew something to do on long passages: hoist the sail, lower and furl the sail, cover the sail. I do have an old IOD spinnaker which is waiting for the right moment.
Good luck.
Roger

 

[kolive]

Roger,

Do you have any photos of your sail on your GB 36 you could send me? I would be happy to PM you my email address.

 

[Jimbo2015]

Rodger post any pic''s?

What are the dimensions?