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Old 08-13-2012, 11:36 PM   #21
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$47,000 to reduce a boat's rolling seems.... well, lets put it this way, I can think of a lot of things I'd rather spend $47,000 on than to reduce the rolling of our boat.

But everyone's situation and priorities are different, particularly when it comes to keeping one's boating partner happy. If we bought another boat I'd have to pay to put in a second engine if it only had one just to keep my wife happy.

The chine sleeves that were mentioned earlier were designed---- so said the articles about them when the sleeves came out--- to make the soft-chine Bayliner hull more efficient at speed, not dig as deep a hole in the water at the stern, and lower the bow a bit. I doubt they will have the kind of reducing effect on roll that your wife would like. Our boat has a hard-chine hull as built, and while it doesn't have the deeper, slower roll that displacement boats have, it has a short, semi-violent snap-back roll that a lot of people think is far more uncomfortable.

Bilge keels can have an effective impact on roll but from what I've heard from people, including commercial people, who have them, the main benefit is roll rate reduction, not so much roll distance reduction although they do help some in that regard.

But if you want to reduce roll period, I think your only real choices are active or passive stabilizers. And since you believe your boat does not lend itself to passive stabilizers for aesthetic and perhaps other reasons, that leaves active stabilizers.

From all accounts I've heard from people with GBs who have them, a good active stabilizer system like Naiad can make roll pretty much go away except under very rough conditions. So that would seem to be your best bet for reducing roll underway.

As for stationary or drift fishing, active stabilizers aren't going to do much of anything for you, passive stabilizers (birds) could help a lot due to their long moment arms, and bilge keels could help somewhat. Don't know anything about the gyro system although in theory it could work very well when the boat is stationary. Or you could use a sea anchor to keep your boat pointed into the wind/waves while drift fishing.

But $47.000....... I dunno. You could buy a lot of dramamine for a tenth of that.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
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$47,000 to reduce a boat's rolling seems.... well, lets put it this way, I can think of a lot of things I'd rather spend $47,000 on than to reduce the rolling of our boat.


Marin

Admittidly the cost is significant, but it is a cost that somebody had to bear for every stabilized boat out there.

The Naiad rep told me that the fins would reduce the boats roll by over 90%. That means a 15 degree roll (a pretty uncomfortable roll) goes to 1.5 degrees. That will make from a roll standpoint my boat feel like its at the dock.


If they make boating more comfortable for my admrial than the value is priceless. Its either that or she will never come with me far from the harbor, and harbor cocktails are not what I bought the boat for.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:24 AM   #23
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Oh, I understand the reasoning and have no quarrel with it. I have no idea if we will ever change boats but if we do the only kind we would get is a twin in large part because my wife enjoys boating a lot more with two engines under the sole. And what's a top quality 200-300 hp diesel cost installed these days---- $30k, $40k, more, added to the cost of a boat?

But for me, and fortunately my wife as well (meaning fortunate for me, too), nearly $50k to smooth out a boat's ride some is not a value-for-money proposition. Particularly when it's adding another system to take care of, which is why I like the idea of passive stabilzers if a boat will accomodate them.

But that's us. For someone else, if stabilizers make the difference between getting one's money's worth from a boat instead of simply using it as a floating cocktail tray in the harbor the cost of stabilizers becomes something worth spending.

It's sounding to me like Naiad or equivelent stabilizers are what's going to fill your bill the best although they don't address the still or drift fishing part of the equation.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:39 AM   #24
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Follow your gut, but aren't you facing an uphill battle?

Still, if you're drifting while fishing, I'll say again a wisely-employed sea anchor is worth pursuing. Wonder what you will do with ocean swells causing the boat to constantly rise and fall despite attempts to eliminate roll.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:43 AM   #25
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There's nothing like a 900-foot-plus vessel to help eliminate rocking and rolling.



Sorry, no fishing!
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:02 AM   #26
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NAIAD's new At Anchor system will work when drifting or anchored. Yes, you would need to have the genset running...but this is true of the gyro also when at anchor. Reportedly, roll damping by NAIAD underway is more effective than that of gyros.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:50 AM   #27
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Unless you have some innate bond to your boat, this could be an ideal time to seriously look at another boat you've been lusting after. Dropping $50K on a single system on a not new boat (I don't know the age/value of your boat), would go quite some distance to rationalizing a boat upgrade with some features you've found you'd really like to have (one comes to mind immediately!)
How about powercats? I've watched their behavior while underway a few times and they seem to handle beam wave action much better than monohulls. While I was shopping for a runabout in the Keys I briefly looking into Glacier Bay and ProCat. Unanimous advice against them for hobbyhorsing at anchor and low speed turned us away from them. The trawler versions seem to have a higher length to beam ratio on the individual hulls, but I've yet to chat up an owner who uses one
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:41 AM   #28
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This is ending up in an interesting discussion gentleman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Follow your gut, but aren't you facing an uphill battle?

Still, if you're drifting while fishing, I'll say again a wisely-employed sea anchor is worth pursuing. Wonder what you will do with ocean swells causing the boat to constantly rise and fall despite attempts to eliminate roll.
Of course the boat moves, and its going to move out in the open ocean. We do not know each other, but the admrial and I have well over a decade of open ocean cruising experience. This isn't my first boat.

What I'm attempting to do is to make that experience more comfortable. If you think about it, the entire stabilizer industry is built around just that.

Quote:
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NAIAD's new At Anchor system will work when drifting or anchored. Yes, you would need to have the genset running...but this is true of the gyro also when at anchor. Reportedly, roll damping by NAIAD underway is more effective than that of gyros.
I enquired about that. The challenge is that would require a much larger generator. The Naiad at anchor system takes a steady 8KW of power. I have a brand new 8KW northern lights generator on my boat. I really do not want to spend an additional $15K on a new generator as part of this upgrade. It would not be an issue except that I just bought the new generator last winter, and it has all of 140 hours on it.

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Unless you have some innate bond to your boat, this could be an ideal time to seriously look at another boat you've been lusting after. Dropping $50K on a single system on a not new boat (I don't know the age/value of your boat), would go quite some distance to rationalizing a boat upgrade with some features you've found you'd really like to have (one comes to mind immediately!)
How about powercats? I've watched their behavior while underway a few times and they seem to handle beam wave action much better than monohulls. While I was shopping for a runabout in the Keys I briefly looking into Glacier Bay and ProCat. Unanimous advice against them for hobbyhorsing at anchor and low speed turned us away from them. The trawler versions seem to have a higher length to beam ratio on the individual hulls, but I've yet to chat up an owner who uses one
I've had this particular boat one season. It is a 2001 Bayliner pilothouse 4788. This is the exact same boat as the Meridian 490 pilothouse. I had the boat in a shipyard last winter for a complete repwer and refit.

The boat is for all intent a brand new boat. Everything is new. Many of the systems have been upgraded to better than factory new. It is the platform I want to use for my coastal cruising. This is my retirement boat. I "built" this boat to be the perfect coastal cruiser. No compromises, no budget. This boat has everything (except stabilizers) that I could ever ask for in a coastal cruiser.

I almost put stabilizers on it last winter. I wanted to put a season under the hull first to assess how she did. When I learned about the gyros this spring it gave me a choice. Now is the time to make a final decision. Not IF to stabilize, but WHICH stabilizers, is my delemia.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:07 AM   #29
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Have you considered a flume tank? I pulled this off of a Boat Design thread. I haven't been on the T&T forum in some years but the owner of this boat used to post there & I remember him being very happy with the results under power & at anchor.

"One example of the Flume Tank that apparently works was designed by Professor Don Bass of St. John's Newfoundland. This tank was mounted on a motoryacht called Swan Song, a Roughwater 58' designed by Edwin Monk. The rectangular tank is on top of the pilothouse, and is 12' long (athwartships), 4' fore and aft, and 16" high. Inside are 5 T-shaped baffles !8" from either end. The tank reportedly weighs 250 pounds (foam-cored glass) and has 1550 pounds of water in it, about 6.5" deep when floating level. The owner it totally tickled with it. Zero maintenance, zero drag, but of course real concern about high-angle stability and a simple system to dump the weight if needed."
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:34 AM   #30
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OK your innate bond has been established. If this is your lifetime boat you can pour all the money you want/can into it without worry of losing your shirt. This is JMHO. Those "this is the last xxxx I'm going to buy" things are disposable in my mind. I'm going to keep it till I die and I can't take it with me so I'm going to have and enjoy what I get. When I kick off I don't really care what happens with my xxxx. I'd do everything I could to experience a demo of the gyro system in action on a similarly sized boat. Try it underway and at anchor and turned on and off. That is a lot of coin to drop without a comparable demo. BUT if they live up to the hype they would be the #1 choice while anchored.
Another thing to consider (and I'm sure you have) is the fins while proven have a few possibilities that personally give me pause. 2 nice large doo-hickies to catch on ropes/reefs/flotsam/jetsam. Also if they go out what are the chances that they will be in a neutral position. They eat up a lot of real estate in the engine room and it seems they would require just as much reinforcement as the gyro.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:03 AM   #31
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I looked at the Mitsubishi gyro when it first came out and rejected it on the basis of less effective damping and the need to run the genset most of the time. Ended up with Trac stabilizers from ABT. Offshore on the West side of Vancouver Is you can leave your Sonicare stood up in the head and it doesn't fall over when underway in the slop. Delfin has rounded bilges and the positioning of the fins is ideal so the results with your underbody may be different, but for us, the effectiveness is amazing. ABT is highly recommended so I would definitely get a quote from them. I can't prove it but I think my fuel economy is positively affected by stabilization because it keeps the hull square in the water where it presents the least drag. Since I can detect no change in speed with the fins off I assume they create little drag when on.

The only time we have wished for zero speed stabilization is like you, when drift fishing. Doesn't seem like a big enough problem to solve, at least to us.

Hope that helps...
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:03 AM   #32
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Have you considered a flume tank? I pulled this off of a Boat Design thread. I haven't been on the T&T forum in some years but the owner of this boat used to post there & I remember him being very happy with the results under power & at anchor.

"One example of the Flume Tank that apparently works was designed by Professor Don Bass of St. John's Newfoundland. This tank was mounted on a motoryacht called Swan Song, a Roughwater 58' designed by Edwin Monk. The rectangular tank is on top of the pilothouse, and is 12' long (athwartships), 4' fore and aft, and 16" high. Inside are 5 T-shaped baffles !8" from either end. The tank reportedly weighs 250 pounds (foam-cored glass) and has 1550 pounds of water in it, about 6.5" deep when floating level. The owner it totally tickled with it. Zero maintenance, zero drag, but of course real concern about high-angle stability and a simple system to dump the weight if needed."


It called Anti Rolling Tank, ART for short. The Swan Song crossed the Pacific to Hawaii where the boat is for sail. We have a sister boat, 58 ft Roughwater, and I have the designs for the ART as we have email several times over the years. The principle is the same of the bilge flume which are more known.

Not many people know about ART and/or twin bilge keels so discussion/information is limited. They are both relatively cheap, easy to install, require not energy and are passive. However, ART does not solve my primary concern of preventing the Eagle from rolling over when grounded/hard/grid.

I agree a sea anchor will keep the bow into the wind/waves reducing the beem roll. The Swan Song used a sea anchor when they had to stop the engine to chnage oil and servcie. We have one but have not used it. It also could be dragged a stern to slow the speed for trolling.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:10 PM   #33
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There's alot to be said for passive systems. Always better than active IMHO provided they can get the job done.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:19 PM   #34
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I would also get a demo of a gyro in the large swells you are operating in - not with the wake-generated activity I've seen in the demos on the gyro sites.

And I'd really suggest thinking about another boat for fishing <grin> I saw a large OA in Vancouver with a RIB like mine with dual outriggers. I've also seen a number of motoryachts towing fishing boats. How about you leave your wife comfortably protected at anchor on the mothership while you blast off in a fishing machine for a few hours?
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:23 PM   #35
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How about you leave your wife comfortably protected at anchor on the mothership while you blast off in a fishing machine for a few hours?[/QUOTE]

Now that is an idea. For $47,000 You could get one heck of a fishing boat.

Or does the wife like to fish?

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Old 08-14-2012, 01:18 PM   #36
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I have Wesmar fin type stabilizers in my Offshore 54' and they are amazingly effective when under power. I have been out in 10' rolling seas recently and when the stabilizers were switched on the difference was amazing. They are only 4.5 sq ft each and of course they don't do anything at anchor. However, having spent years in PWS and Resolution Bay areas of AK on a round chined 40' trawler, I never once had to anchor up in an uncomfortable rolling anchorage. Also, the Wesmar is hydraulic and runs off a PTO on one engine. Very effective and low energy needs combination. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:25 PM   #37
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As usual I'm getting ito this late in the game

Having experience with the 47 and now the 48 with active stabilizers I have some thoughts.
Any added weight in the stern of your 47 will effect your speed and trim angle. Another 750Lb plus your genny and battery bank will effect performance drastically. So on that basis alone I would rule out the gyro. Weight is your enemy on the 47. In fact I think that much added weight may cause you to move your boot line up and cause your cockpit drains to be at water line or slightly below. So you would probably need to add sea cocks to these drains. I know this can be a problem as my boat had the 12kw genny and combined with the four L16 batteries and my 2-8D starting batteries this is what I had to do.
You have round chines but a very flat hull and this is the cause of your pitching. The 47 has a very low center of gravity so the pitching has more to do with it's flat hull than anything else.
As you mentioned once you get the 47 semi planing this is not an issue, it's only drifting when the boat swings beam to the swell or chop. Since I fought with this same issue with mine I considered para-vanes and decided as you have that it just doesn't fit the look or purpose of the boat.
There have been several 4788 that were fitted with stabilizers and there must be something in the Bayliner forum discussing them. The relative light weight of the 47 makes me think that 6sq' or smaller fins might be able to over power the flat hull shape and give you the relief your looking for. They work wonders on the relatively round bottom shape of the 48LRC. If you think about it you have probably 400 sq' of flat hull to over power. So I'm not sure at drifting speed the fins are going to be that effective. They would certainly help. On plane they would control all roll and I think in a following sea they would improve directional control maybe even eliminating the 47's tendency to broach when surfing. If they do this would be well worth the cost.
The machinery to run the fins takes up a lot of space and that may create issues in a already tight engine room. they are also driven by one engine and if you wanted to drift that engine will be getting a lot of idle time the other engine isn't. I guess you could drive them off your genny but I think your using a 8kw now and it might not have enough reserve hp to run the pump for the stabilizers. Fins also create drag and will effect your cruise speed and economy. Still they may be the option that makes the most sense.
Here's a thought I think might be worth trying. You could install a couple of short out riggers just behind the pilot house off the gunnel and deploy flopper stoppers the mushroom shaped type that slide up and down dampening roll. You can add as many as you need to create the dampening needed and this would be fairly easy to deploy could be stored in a deck box when not needed and would except when deployed have no effect on your boats appearance. Some short guy wire and a bracket on the butt end of the out riggers would be all that would be needed. I've talked to boaters using them on Grand Banks who swear by them. If I had kept my 47 this was what I was going to do. This snap roll and tendency to broach were the only issues I had with 47, if active stabilizers fix this you'll have the near perfect boat.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:51 PM   #38
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Having experience with the 47 and now the 48 with active stabilizers I have some thoughts.
Any added weight in the stern of your 47 will effect your speed and trim angle. Another 750Lb plus your genny and battery bank will effect performance drastically. So on that basis alone I would rule out the gyro. Weight is your enemy on the 47. In fact I think that much added weight may cause you to move your boot line up and cause your cockpit drains to be at water line or slightly below. So you would probably need to add sea cocks to these drains. I know this can be a problem as my boat had the 12kw genny and combined with the four L16 batteries and my 2-8D starting batteries this is what I had to do.
You have round chines but a very flat hull and this is the cause of your pitching. The 47 has a very low center of gravity so the pitching has more to do with it's flat hull than anything else.
As you mentioned once you get the 47 semi planing this is not an issue, it's only drifting when the boat swings beam to the swell or chop. Since I fought with this same issue with mine I considered para-vanes and decided as you have that it just doesn't fit the look or purpose of the boat.
There have been several 4788 that were fitted with stabilizers and there must be something in the Bayliner forum discussing them. The relative light weight of the 47 makes me think that 6sq' or smaller fins might be able to over power the flat hull shape and give you the relief your looking for. They work wonders on the relatively round bottom shape of the 48LRC. If you think about it you have probably 400 sq' of flat hull to over power. So I'm not sure at drifting speed the fins are going to be that effective. They would certainly help. On plane they would control all roll and I think in a following sea they would improve directional control maybe even eliminating the 47's tendency to broach when surfing. If they do this would be well worth the cost.
The machinery to run the fins takes up a lot of space and that may create issues in a already tight engine room. they are also driven by one engine and if you wanted to drift that engine will be getting a lot of idle time the other engine isn't. I guess you could drive them off your genny but I think your using a 8kw now and it might not have enough reserve hp to run the pump for the stabilizers. Fins also create drag and will effect your cruise speed and economy. Still they may be the option that makes the most sense.
Here's a thought I think might be worth trying. You could install a couple of short out riggers just behind the pilot house off the gunnel and deploy flopper stoppers the mushroom shaped type that slide up and down dampening roll. You can add as many as you need to create the dampening needed and this would be fairly easy to deploy could be stored in a deck box when not needed and would except when deployed have no effect on your boats appearance. Some short guy wire and a bracket on the butt end of the out riggers would be all that would be needed. I've talked to boaters using them on Grand Banks who swear by them. If I had kept my 47 this was what I was going to do. This snap roll and tendency to broach were the only issues I had with 47, if active stabilizers fix this you'll have the near perfect boat.
Thanks Steve

I remember talking with you regarding my concerns with rolling prior to buying the 4788. As you can see, they've come to fruition.

Naiad recommended 6 sqft fins based on a 9 knot cruise speed, and the rep being familiar with the hull grometry of the 4788.

The components of the current generation Naiad gear are a control box that we'd mount in the engine room on the port side, either on the foward bulkhead or outboard of the port engine, hydraulics, and fins.

The hydraulic pump setup can be either electric or engine mounted. I think engine mounted would be best, plus a reservoir for hydraulic fluid. I'm checking on the electrical requirements as a option, to see if a good size inverter could handle the load. If i chose electrical they have a power pack that is a complete system with electrical and hydraulic hose connections.

The fins will/would be located either under the mid or bunk stateroom berth for port and either the mid or master head sink cabinet for starboard. They require an 18" sq backer plate to be installed to distribute the loads.

At this point I'm quickly discounting the Gyro not only because of the weight, but because they cannot document any installations of a similar boat to mine.

On the other hand the Naiad rep would be happy to take me out for a demo cruise on a similar size semi displacement boat to show me just how well the fins work. He invited me to come down, and indicated that once I've been on a boat with fins I'd never own a boat with out them.
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Old 08-14-2012, 05:17 PM   #39
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Here's an interesting thread about a guy with a GB47 Europa who installed ABT Trac stabilizers himself:
Stabilizer Installation - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Bottom line: He still spent about $12K to install them (and 100+ hours of his time) versus the $25K to $30K quoted by installers.

Anyone considering installing stabilizers would do well to read this thread - it is not a plug and play process!
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Here's an interesting thread about a guy with a GB47 Europa who installed ABT Trac stabilizers himself:
Stabilizer Installation - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Bottom line: He still spent about $12K to install them (and 100+ hours of his time) versus the $25K to $30K quoted by installers.

Anyone considering installing stabilizers would do well to read this thread - it is not a plug and play process!
Thanks!!!!!

What a wonderful thread!

I have been debating that approach!

I could do that job (except the fiberglass)

My background is that of an electrical, electronic, and mechanical technician/ quasi engineer.

I'm going to really think about the labor on this. I have installation details from the exact same boat as mine, so the structural engineering is complete. I could hire a good fiberglass shop to do the build up then do the rest myself.

That's something to consider.

Everything but the fiberglass is well within my existing skill set.

Interesting!!!!!
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