Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-25-2014, 12:32 PM   #21
Guru
 
Scary's Avatar
 
City: Walnut Grove Ca
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cary'D Away
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
Full displacement off shore, coastal active fins

If your going to boat with a full displacement boat on our coast and you want others to boat with you, you'll need at least paravanes. I had a neighbor with a Nordhavn 40 that had both active fins and paravanes. Unfortunately our coast is rough more than not. One of the big factors I noticed right away was improved tracking in following seas. This is a big deal with powerboats that don't have the luxury of that huge rudder sailboats enjoy. In rough conditions I have zero cross tract error caused by wave action. This has to a lot easier on the auto pilot and steering gear. If I turn off my fins I have instant mutiny, what's wrong, turn those fking things on again or I'm getting off, I don't care if it uses's fuel. Typical comments. The downside besides cost, is the loss of about a half a knot of speed and the power loss on one engine. I have 6' Niads on 9' system. Maintenance has been minimal except for seal replacement every 5 years or so. If you have limited recreation time you may want to consider a semi displacement boat that can actually go somewhere on a weekend. There are boats like the Bayliner 4788 or Tolycraft that can cruise a 16knts and have coastal capability. They don't provide the soft ride a full displacement boat offers but they give you the ability to get to Monterey in about 6 hours from SF. The ride will be bumpy but it's over in 6 hours. These boats get along pretty well without stabilizers. In protected water they give up nothing and gain flexibility, go slow or fast your choice.
__________________
Advertisement

Scary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2014, 12:41 PM   #22
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,313
Well, my my count the vote is 20 for, 0 against, 1 abstention

The only mistake I made was not getting a boat with them already, and then I compounded that mistake by waiting 3,000 nm to get them installed.
__________________

__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2014, 01:24 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
funangler's Avatar
 
City: Erie PA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Endless Endeavor
Vessel Model: Custom
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 214
I find it impracticable to secure every area of a 40 to 60 ft boat for a little 4 hr cruise. I will deploy the stabilizers even in calm condition so I don't have to worry about large boat wakes spilling drinks or knocking people over. Getting ready for true offshore travel or waves that are greater then 8 ft is a different pre-departure process.
funangler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2014, 02:12 PM   #24
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
The higher the helm above the water line, the more the stabilizers matter. On my little 38, at the lower helm my feet are only about 3' above the water. Even rough, it's not too bad. The flybridge, on the other hand, is tough. Kind of like a mouse on the end of a broomstick.. It matters how much the stick is moving, but also matters how far out on the stick you are!!

My vote is to get the active stabs. Flopper stoppers work on anchor better, but sounds like the OP's travels that may not be a big deal.
You make a good point about mice and broomsticks. On my Catalina 36 I stand almost at the waterline when at the helm. I can see that roll would be worse in a pilot house or on a flying bridge.

Thanks

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2014, 02:16 PM   #25
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Well, my my count the vote is 20 for, 0 against, 1 abstention

The only mistake I made was not getting a boat with them already, and then I compounded that mistake by waiting 3,000 nm to get them installed.
I did get one dissention as a PM - but still the numbers are overwhelming. The point made about being higher up on the boat was particularly telling - that would make roll far less tolerable than on a sailboat when one is at or near the waterline.

So I think I should make stabilizers a requirement for my purchase - unless the price is so good that I could consider adding them afterwards.

Thanks all for the feedback!

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2014, 02:29 PM   #26
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary View Post
If your going to boat with a full displacement boat on our coast and you want others to boat with you, you'll need at least paravanes. I had a neighbor with a Nordhavn 40 that had both active fins and paravanes. Unfortunately our coast is rough more than not. One of the big factors I noticed right away was improved tracking in following seas. This is a big deal with powerboats that don't have the luxury of that huge rudder sailboats enjoy. In rough conditions I have zero cross tract error caused by wave action. This has to a lot easier on the auto pilot and steering gear. If I turn off my fins I have instant mutiny, what's wrong, turn those fking things on again or I'm getting off, I don't care if it uses's fuel. Typical comments. The downside besides cost, is the loss of about a half a knot of speed and the power loss on one engine. I have 6' Niads on 9' system. Maintenance has been minimal except for seal replacement every 5 years or so. If you have limited recreation time you may want to consider a semi displacement boat that can actually go somewhere on a weekend. There are boats like the Bayliner 4788 or Tolycraft that can cruise a 16knts and have coastal capability. They don't provide the soft ride a full displacement boat offers but they give you the ability to get to Monterey in about 6 hours from SF. The ride will be bumpy but it's over in 6 hours. These boats get along pretty well without stabilizers. In protected water they give up nothing and gain flexibility, go slow or fast your choice.
This all makes good sense.

I'm not really interested in going faster. I've been on a Tollycraft 48 and I knew it wasn't the boat for me. As you say, the coast here is often fairly rough - and I doubt there are many days one could really do the trip to Monterey in 6 hours - that's 16kts average if you start from the Golden Gate. And if I have limited recreation time it won't be easy to pick the best weather window.

I've single handed my Catalina 36 down that way many times including at night into Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay. Also, many of the friends I am likely to cruise with will still be on their sailboats - I'll still get there before them!

I really like the 48LRC - I nearly bought one - but in the end the price was too far above market and it didn't have stabilizers. I wouldn't have had enough left over funds to add them...

Thanks

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 08:54 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
City: Gainesville, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
There are options out there for FD vessels that have inherently stable hulls and do not need and do not benefit from additional stabilization...
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
kraftee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 09:09 AM   #28
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraftee View Post
There are options out there for FD vessels that have inherently stable hulls and do not need and do not benefit from additional stabilization...
And the options are?
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 10:17 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
City: Gainesville, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
Sorry Larry. Thought that would be pretty obvious with my built-in bias! Great Harbour.
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
kraftee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 10:49 AM   #30
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Which begs the question, does the GH have a hard chine or a "round" bottom like the FD purists demand?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 10:58 AM   #31
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraftee View Post
Sorry Larry. Thought that would be pretty obvious with my built-in bias! Great Harbour.
Sorry, but you lost me. I see you have a Californian 45.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 11:02 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
City: Gainesville, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
"...like the FD purists demand?" Not sure what that statement means as most modern full displacement tugs, workboats and fishing boats have hard-chine hulls.


And yes, all Great Harbours have hard chines - but make no mistake, they are DEFINTELY true FD hulls!


ERIC
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
kraftee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 11:03 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
City: Gainesville, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
Yeah, my liveaboard is an old Californian - but as I have posted in many other threads, I was Sales Director for Mirage Manufacturing/Great Harbour Trawlers for 9 years. Thought you had participated in some of those threads. My mistake.


ERIC
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
kraftee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 11:17 AM   #34
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraftee View Post
Yeah, my liveaboard is an old Californian - but as I have posted in many other threads, I was Sales Director for Mirage Manufacturing/Great Harbour Trawlers for 9 years. Thought you had participated in some of those threads. My mistake. ERIC
Well heck, that explains it.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 01:15 PM   #35
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,197
I've heard lots of boat salesmen say that this boat or that boat is so stable that it doesn't need stabilizers. It's a great sales line, but dodges the fact that ANY boat gets more stable with stabilizers.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 01:55 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
City: Gainesville, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
Quote:
...ANY boat gets more stable with stabilizers

Actually, that is a pretty broad statement. And like many broad statements, it is true in some cases, but not in ALL cases - and not in the case of a Great Harbour hull. But then, like you said, I'm just a "salesman". Maybe Lou Codega will weigh in here with a much more educated discussion on the topic.
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
kraftee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 02:09 PM   #37
Veteran Member
 
AvalonGB's Avatar
 
City: Noank
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Avalon
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 29
Our Grand Banks 46 has Naiad active stabilizers. For us they make a huge difference in comfort underway. We use them all the time and have found them to be reasonable from a maintenance perspective. Ours were fit to Avalon in 2000 and I believe the systems have improved significantly since then.

However, the installation is critical and if you purchase a vessel with active stabilizers installed after manufacture I'd recommend having the fin actuator installation to the hull surveyed very thoroughly. A practice of many installers in the late 90s and early 2000s was the install the actuator blocks to the hull using 3M 5200. Such installations may eventually fail, ask me how I know, and the current practice is to fully glass the blocks to the hull making them one integrated piece. Even though the blocks and actuators are through bolted, sandwiching the hull, the block must be glassed in making it one piece with the hull. The pressures underway from the fins and actuators are significant and require an extremely strong mounting platform.

I donít believe we would ever go back to a boat without active stabilizers. For us they really make cruising much more enjoyable in all conditions, particularly in poorer conditions and in areas with significant boat wake traffic.

Tim
AvalonGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 07:01 PM   #38
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insequent View Post
Probably around $60k, yard installed. If retrofitting, it depends on access. Ideally they will be midships, but anywhere in the middle third will likely be ok.
Set on Bay Pelican cost $40,000 US in 2012.
__________________
Marty
Bay Pelican is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 08:01 PM   #39
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,496
Even if a vessel has a lot of initial stability, like the Great Harbor boats, the idea that they would not be improved with stabilization can't be correct. They may be just fine most of the time, but when the seas are moving under you at 30 degrees, you will heel 30 degrees without stabilization. That may not be a frequent occurrence and so perhaps the cost isn't worth it to some, but ALL vessels will benefit from some form of stabilization in some conditions.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2014, 08:54 PM   #40
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 852
Modern, properly sized, active fins are said to eliminate as much as 90% of roll. Although I can't quantify the benefit on my boat, I can tell you that my kids immediately know from the ride whether the stabilizers are on or not (and insist that I keep them on, which I am happy to do; I only have them off when docking and leaving the dock since having them on makes it real tough to control them boat with either engine in reverse).
__________________

MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012