SS El Faro Disaster

[Art]

I believe the weight of this calamity can be placed on several shoulders.


1. The Captain should not have stayed asleep for eight (8) hours while his ship was so very close to an extremely dangerous storm.


2. The ship's quality management services at last port of call should have had the hatch that broke loose in better fastened condition.


3. I do not know why senior officers in the crew did not take time to, nor make ample effort to, succeed in awakening the sleeping Captain so that he could be made fully aware of the dangers at hand.


4. TOTE's main office should always have on hand an expert climatologist who can oversee weather conditions during big storms as well as a TOTE's ship heading anywhere near the storm. The climatologist should have authority to at any time make sure [by phone or other means] that the Captain of a ship near a storm confabs directly with he/her for cooperatively made decisions of the ship's heading. In cases such as this... there should be a company policy that if the Captain is asleep - then, immediately wake him/her the heck up!!

 

[psneeld]

Not sure about the captain being asleep being relavent.


I have enough sea time on ships to know that a captain always on the bridge becomes stupid with fatigue all too often. Aviation proved that long ago.


The captains orders if followed precisely do not require him on the bridge....it makes no matter till something quite critical comes up...not sure this meets that criteria or not.....I will read the final report and see just what was what when and where.


Climatoligist? The average captain either afloat or in the air given the right data makes the call...not some barometric reader.....which I don't believe is what a climatologist versus meteorologist does.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Salty Dawg

They mentioned seas "as high as 30 feet". In itself would you say that 30 foot seas are pretty doable for a ship that type / size?

Believe it or not, 30' seas are pretty common in some parts of the world. North Atlantic in winter springs to mind and I have done a few of them and never feared for the ship or my life. Another place it is fairly common it the Tasman Sea south of Australia where the issue for us was that they were on the beam as we had turned west to head to Melbourne and other southern ports. We would routinely have deck cargo break loose and have to go lasso it. Who boy that was fun, especially at night.

The highest seas that I was ever in was 80-90' in the North Sea in higher than strong gale force winds. We knew the height of the waves because the bridge wing was 80' above sea level and we had green water breaking over that. And even then I was not worried about the strength of the ship. It was a car/truck/passenger ferry running from Hamburg to Ipswich. All passengers were sick though. We ploughed through it in 12 hours of misery.

There are plenty of videos on the web of ships in horrible sea condition if one cares to look.

So my opinion is that if the ship had been in sound condition, there should have been no problem with the captains decision. They would have had an uncomfortable ride for sure. For me, the real issue is why did the boilers go down?. They had two. Why was there a polish riding crew of three welder/ fitters on board and what were they doing during the voyage?. If they were replacing pipe where was that? In the bilges? In the tubing of the boilers? What machinery was out of service during the voyage?

Once the power was lost and the ship broached, it was inevitable that the ship would be lost. The crew understood the condition of the ship. My heart goes out to them and their families..

 

[SaltyDawg86]

Salty Dawg
They mentioned seas "as high as 30 feet". In itself would you say that 30 foot seas are pretty doable for a ship that type / size?

It's hard to say. 30 ft alone isn't impossible, but there would be damage for sure. Add in shifting cargo, free surface and water intrusion... I'm betting there was synchronize rolling and that I'm sure did her in. I've been on a ship that started synchronized rolling in 12 ft seas and that caused some problems. We had mains, so a course change ended that. But water is a very powerful force and a lot of people don't understand that.

By the way, want to know why this makes me bitter? Look at my profile picture. That's from a hurricane and it was a cat 1 on a 285 ft vsl. The captain asked if we could delay sailing 12 hours so we could get in behind the storm. We were told sail on time or they would fly in a crew that would. We sailed and got fraight trained. Had we lost our main, we would have been sitting on the bottom of the ocean floor. I know why they sailed. We don't have any support. Sail or lose your job and maybe damage your career. The office doesn't care about theories if it costs money. Has one of the mates changed course and saved the ship, they would have been fired because you can't prove you saved the ship.

 

[Art]

Not sure about the captain being asleep being relavent.


I have enough sea time on ships to know that a captain always on the bridge becomes stupid with fatigue all too often. Aviation proved that long ago.


The captains orders if followed precisely do not require him on the bridge....it makes no matter till something quite critical comes up...not sure this meets that criteria or not.....I will read the final report and see just what was what when and where.


Climatoligist? The average captain either afloat or in the air given the right data makes the call...not some barometric reader.....which I don't believe is what a climatologist versus meteorologist does.

I used the long term weather predictor's title rather than the short term one. Sorry bout dat! I am so used to reading climatologist reports that that weather predictor title stuck in my head.

 

[psneeld]

Believe it or not, 30' seas are pretty common in some parts of the world. North Atlantic in winter springs to mind and I have done a few of them and never feared for the ship or my life. Another place it is fairly common it the Tasman Sea south of Australia where the issue for us was that they were on the beam as we had turned west to head to Melbourne and other southern ports. We would routinely have deck cargo break loose and have to go lasso it. Who boy that was fun, especially at night.

The highest seas that I was ever in was 80-90' in the North Sea in higher than strong gale force winds. We knew the height of the waves because the bridge wing was 80' above sea level and we had green water breaking over that. And even then I was not worried about the strength of the ship. It was a car/truck/passenger ferry running from Hamburg to Ipswich. All passengers were sick though. We ploughed through it in 12 hours of misery.

There are plenty of videos on the web of ships in horrible sea condition if one cares to look.

So my opinion is that if the ship had been in sound condition, there should have been no problem with the captains decision. They would have had an uncomfortable ride for sure. For me, the real issue is why did the boilers go down?. They had two. Why was there a polish riding crew of three welder/ fitters on board and what were they doing during the voyage?. If they were replacing pipe where was that? In the bilges? In the tubing of the boilers? What machinery was out of service during the voyage?

Once the power was lost and the ship broached, it was inevitable that the ship would be lost. The crew understood the condition of the ship. My heart goes out to them and their families..

way more complicated than many here would make it....

one of the biggest mistakes is thinking anyone or all of the other bridge crew combined had 1/10 the experience of the captain. Sure he should have listened closer, sure he could have been way off base...the one thing I haven't seen is the real part of bridge resource coordination where concerned subordinates lay out true concerns and facts that could have swayed the captain.

Again...I will await the final report and read through the transcripts as everything till then is chest beating.

 

[Benthic2]

Interesting fact....

As I've been reading about this, I kept coming across the phrase: "Worst maritime disaster for a US flagged vessel in 30 years"....so I went looking for what ship everyone was referring to. It was the Marine Electric sinking in 1983. The interesting part is that ship was built by the same shipyard as the El Faro, and she sank because of water entering through a deteriorated hatch

 

[BandB]

I

By the way, want to know why this makes me bitter? Look at my profile picture. That's from a hurricane and it was a cat 1 on a 285 ft vsl. The captain asked if we could delay sailing 12 hours so we could get in behind the storm. We were told sail on time or they would fly in a crew that would. We sailed and got fraight trained. Had we lost our main, we would have been sitting on the bottom of the ocean floor. I know why they sailed. We don't have any support. Sail or lose your job and maybe damage your career. The office doesn't care about theories if it costs money. Has one of the mates changed course and saved the ship, they would have been fired because you can't prove you saved the ship.

Well, if you're read my posts, I've placed blame on both the Captain and TOTE. As a captain you have to face tough decisions and making the right one may result in losing your job. In fact, I have an acquaintance who had that happen to him about a week ago. He was told to move a boat. He felt with one engine down and the conditions it was unsafe. He was told they'd have the engineer do it then. He said, not while I'm master. They fired him.

I strongly believe in holding corporations and their executives responsible. They do have a responsibility to protect their crew. I feel like the owner of The Bounty should have been criminally charged. I felt like there should have been more responsibility and penalty for the company in the Costa Concordia situation. That's not relieving Shettino of his responsibility but what he was attempting to do was done often by captains for Costa and never discouraged until the tragedy.

We all face difficult decisions in our careers and in our lives. You and others here have certainly faced decisions as to safety vs. income that no one should ever have to face. A company shouldn't make or even allow you to choose to travel unsafely.

You think no one who has never worked on ships like you did understands. Unfortunately, I do have a very clear understanding of the way many of the companies are run. I have an understanding of Carnival choosing to put passengers at further health risk for days because they wanted to get to a cheaper port for repairs. I've seen manufacturers take short cuts for cost savings that put employees at risk. I've had to check out employee treatment around the world and choose not to use the low cost supplier based on their inhumane practices. I've seen an owner of a major apparel company who thought of the employees as unimportant and ran all over them (now his tactics failed with US Customs).

Your example you used to explain your bitterness, your captain made a choice. Was it the right one or not, I don't know and won't judge. Employees aren't excused from their actions based on corporate orders and corporations should never be excused from their practices and policies that lead to unsafe endeavors.

 

[SaltyDawg86]

It's easy to tell someone else they should lose their job to prove a point. Different story when it affects your family directly.

And if you don't work in the industry then no, you don't understand it.

 

[psneeld]

It's easy to tell someone else they should lose their job to prove a point. Different story when it affects your family directly.

And if you don't work in the industry then no, you don't understand it.

I made plenty of life and death decisions in my career.

For me and my crew, for those in distress and as a supervisor of other helo crews....plus safety for overall operations of a large organization.

Most decisions went my way because I really knew my job.

Some didn't and probably cost me a longer career...but I chose life every time over career.

So if you think dying is better than losing your job... have at it...but don't think that just because some of us aren't merchant mariners don't know what you might have to go through.

There are some pretty smart people here on TF, you might give them the benefit of the doubt...but if you don't...argue the relevant points...not the job experience.

But if you noticed before in one of my posts...those on the field of battle do wield the biggest stick in these conversations as long as that experience is brough to bear in the conversation through relevant points..

 

[BandB]

It's easy to tell someone else they should lose their job to prove a point. Different story when it affects your family directly.

And if you don't work in the industry then no, you don't understand it.

People risk jobs every day in other industries. The boldest move I ever made in business put my job in serious jeopardy. I'm not minimizing what it means. However, one has to decide where to draw the line, in any job, in any business. Clearly a lot of companies don't care about their employees. Meanwhile there are others that care a great deal.

And as to the person I spoke of who lost his job last week, he left with them owing him money too that he may never see. It definitely impacts his family.

Your industry isn't the only one with those type decisions. Look at aviation.

 

[SaltyDawg86]

I think dying is better than losing a job? Have I ever said that? What I said was there hasn't been a maritime disaster like that in the USMM in 35 years, so how can a Jr officier override the captain? How can they prove it was for the good of the vessel? They can't. This isn't the military. There's no finger wag and cut in pay, you get fired. Then what? How do you continue to support a family while being black balled? Until we get actual support, limits will be pushed so contract requirements can be met. By the way, job experience is a valid point. I'm not arm chair quaterbacking, I've been there. Not that it gets consideration here.

 

[BandB]

I made plenty of life and death decisions in my career.

For me and my crew, for those in distress and as a supervisor of other helo crews....plus safety for overall operations of a large organization.

Most decisions went my way because I really knew my job.

Some didn't and probably cost me a longer career...but I chose life every time over career.

So if you think dying is better than losing your job... have at it...but don't think that just because some of us aren't merchant mariners don't know what you might have to go through.

.

I would think some of yours were even more difficult because they involved the lives of those in trouble and the lives of your crew and whichever choice you made endangered someone. People get up in arms when a search is called off for the remainder of the day due to conditions. Life vs money is one level of difficulty but life vs life is even more complex.

 

[psneeld]

I think dying is better than losing a job? Have I ever said that? What I said was there hasn't been a maritime disaster like that in the USMM in 35 years, so how can a Jr officier override the captain? How can they prove it was for the good of the vessel? They can't. This isn't the military. There's no finger wag and cut in pay, you get fired. Then what? How do you continue to support a family while being black balled? Until we get actual support, limits will be pushed so contract requirements can be met. By the way, job experience is a valid point. I'm not arm chair quaterbacking, I've been there. Not that it gets consideration here.

If you think overriding or arguing with the Captain in a serious way is a finger wag and a cut in pay...well good for you...you understand as much of the military as you claim we do about your job.

Sorry if I insinuated you would rather die than get fired....

But you aren't making that distinction clear.

That seems to be the discussion point right now...and you don't seem to have the 3rd option people are looking for....I know what mine would have been...but I HAVE faced orders that have risked my life and I declined in such a way that I didn't lose my job )most of the time) and when I did....I found a new path.

How do you support a family when dead? Life insurance?

The discussion point is making that decision...what say you? Mutiny and live or die as the crew did?

I really don't think it went down that way...but some do and are asking that very question...

 

[ancora]

Excerpt from Professional Mariner: "NTSB investigators acknowledged El Faro received weather data from multiple sources, and the reports at times conflicted with each other. El Faro's email-based weather service, the Bon Voyage System, was transmitting forecasts that were many hours old. The ship also received text-based weather forecasts through the Inmarsat-C Safety Net program which transmits by fax. The bridge also has SiriusXM radio that broadcast weather reports, and the crew were following the storm on The Weather Channel and the website Weather Underground."

 

[BruceK]

I made plenty of life and death decisions in my

Some didn't and probably cost me a longer career...but I chose life every time over career.

So if you think dying is better than losing your job... have at it...but don't think that just because some of us aren't merchant mariners don't know what you might have to go through.

I get that. Subject to the view the ship would have survived but for a leaking hatch(?not checked/not fixable) the crew choice was simple: "mutiny"> possible survival -or- accept command > likely death.
Reports suggest the same problem exists on some Asian airlines, eg. Asiana at San Francisco a few years back.

 

[psneeld]

I would think some of yours were even more difficult because they involved the lives of those in trouble and the lives of your crew and whichever choice you made endangered someone. People get up in arms when a search is called off for the remainder of the day due to conditions. Life vs money is one level of difficulty but life vs life is even more complex.

One that sticks in my mind was calling off the search for a 6 year old boy when he went missing on the beach.

Telling his mom was incredibly tough as I had a 6 year old at the time.
But I knew my job and told the Governor's special aid the boy would be found a short ways down the beach the next day. Sure enough he came ashore the next morning abut 1/2 mile down the beach. Reporting that was equally as tough. Thankfully the State Troopers get that crappy job to notify the parents.

The other really hard decision is telling a really new copilot that their input is valued but is going to get overridden in spades. The whole point of having an experienced person in charge is so that the mission gets done, even in difficult circumstances. If I had backed off every time some new kid said they were uncomfy, there possibly would be a lot more dead people. Now plenty of times I reworked the scenario to make things appear more safe in their eyes...but experience knows when you hit the limit and that's the game sometimes.....hopefully it IS the experience and training that gets all hands through the danger and the mission accomplished..

 

[BandB]

Excerpt from Professional Mariner: "NTSB investigators acknowledged El Faro received weather data from multiple sources, and the reports at times conflicted with each other. El Faro's email-based weather service, the Bon Voyage System, was transmitting forecasts that were many hours old. The ship also received text-based weather forecasts through the Inmarsat-C Safety Net program which transmits by fax. The bridge also has SiriusXM radio that broadcast weather reports, and the crew were following the storm on The Weather Channel and the website Weather Underground."

TOTE didn't subscribe to a weather service until after El Faro sank. If I'd had a ship sailing into a hurricane area like that, as an owner or executive of the company, I wouldn't have slept much either, trying to track it and the storm every minute, communicating with the ship.

On the other hand they had information putting them 20 nm from the eye and continued toward it.

Reports always conflict so I take the worst one seriously.

 

[Benthic2]

I believe they were getting current updates on the bridge, but the captain in his office was getting reports that were 6 hours old...when he was awake.

 

[McGillicuddy]

The officer on watch has the ability to call the captain at any time if he feels the situation is turning for the worse. It's usually a standing order in the bridge order book. The captain has to get sleep and needs to rely on the OOW to awaken him in the event of a serious problem. I know I did it several times. If I were OOW and my information was turning bad I would not have any hesitation calling the captain to the bridge.
The fact that didn't happen is worrisome.

 

[Ski in NC]

Hurricanes have "personalities", for lack of a better term. You can get the latest forecast from the best forecasters and the thing can vary from a snotty blow to something that can peel pavement off a coastal road. I've been in the middle of both types, and the forecasts were not much different.

I could see the Cap't looking at the forecast and saying "we've been through worse" and all was ok. Except in this case, the storm turned into a bad a$$ as they sometimes do.

He took a gamble and it did not work out. He might have taken the same gamble with several prior storms with no trouble.

Storms are fickle that way.

 

[Benthic2]

twice the officer on the bridge called the captain and suggested a course change and it is assumed the captain said no because they didn't change course.

 

[Art]

I work for myself. Always have... except about 18 to 20 months working for a few others when young. The buck always stops at my desk. Safety for and the good of others working for me always stops at my mind and heart.

I've been pretty lucky to have mostly made correct decisions.

Reason I work for myself... besides wanting to, and loving it... I've been able to make a difference in small ways. Currently developing something that I hope within several years will make a good difference in a big way.

And, oh yes - also love working for myself because it keeps me young in body, mind and spirit!!

 

[Benthic2]

apparently the Capt had taken a longer route a month earlier to avoid Tropical Storm Erica and there was speculation that he got chewed out for it. He had applied for a new job within TOTE and may have felt pressure to prove himself worthy.

 

[Art]

apparently the Capt had taken a longer route a month earlier to avoid Tropical Storm Erica and there was speculation that he got chewed out for it. He had applied for a new job within TOTE and may have felt pressure to prove himself worthy.

Ouch - Talk about internal pressure...

 

[AlaskaProf]

Thanks! I wasn't sure if it was an acronym for a marine safety program or not.

It stands for Totem Ocean Trailer Express , best known for the two very modern roll-on vessels which operate twice-weekly between Anchorage and Tacoma. I don't profess to have the level of professional seamanship which seems to reside in this conversation, but I do have 40 years of experience in transportion, and specifically in transportation management, and in my brief exposure to their operation, I was impressed by what I saw. Which is to say, I suppose, that this tragedy may be a lapse rather than a pervasive culture.

This is me on their vessel Midnight Sun in the Gulf of Alaska:

 

[BruceK]

Art, you have the privilege, as do many "self employed" of making your own decisions, be they financial, moral, business related, ethical, etc.
Not everyone has that privilege, and it is not always easily exercised, because there are many pressures, external and even internal.
We all make decisions, constantly. When we make decisions we know they often affect others. A surgeon operating, a lawyer on his feet in Court, a Captain of a ship in peril,a coach driver faced with an oncoming car, those decisions are often made under pressure, in an instant. We hope they are right, we aim to be right, and we have to be quick, before the situation worsens out of control. Decisions won`t always be right, that is the nature of man. Often the "right" decision balancing the circumstances becomes blindingly obvious, especially under pressure. Might there be a different decision later, if the luxury of time to reflect, was available?
The primary purpose of an Inquiry to to discover what happened. The best result can be one which guides future conduct to avoid similar catastrophe. Attributing blame after the event to those who faced the agony of the moment and are not here to explain,and perhaps got it wrong, is very hard indeed.

 

[Group9]

Hurricanes have "personalities", for lack of a better term. You can get the latest forecast from the best forecasters and the thing can vary from a snotty blow to something that can peel pavement off a coastal road. I've been in the middle of both types, and the forecasts were not much different.

I could see the Cap't looking at the forecast and saying "we've been through worse" and all was ok. Except in this case, the storm turned into a bad a$$ as they sometimes do.

He took a gamble and it did not work out. He might have taken the same gamble with several prior storms with no trouble.

Storms are fickle that way.

I've seen that mentality in my profession, law enforcement, too. You take a stupid risk, and get away with it. Then, instead of realizing what you did, you decide that the risk was less than you thought, and you do it more times until it bites you.

We also suffered from the "Better to obey and be killed than object and be fired" mentality, as well. I'm guilty myself. Stupid, reallly. But, often, you are retired when you figure that out.

 

[psneeld]

The trick is who gets to label it a "stupid risk" or "getting away with it".

I have seen very new and inexperienced people get all excited by things that are ho hum to the highly experienced and welll trained.

And the other way ....where the old salts are as dangerous as they come.

In my experience, it has to be the trained pro that goes home and beats the self up. It's the guys who don't that need close watching.

But either extreme can get into a situation that even with the best risk management continues to go down hill until bad things happen....especially the more variables involved. That's where management HAS to exert itself , by monitoring and giving the operator a way out of a bad situation. We saw that so many times in rescue work that it became a new way to do things after decades of fallen heroes.

As they say, even the greatest of generals lose at least one battle.....

 

[Group9]

And, in the final determination, there are just some jobs where you are paid to do things that normal people won't do. Whenever someone asked my partner what the qualifications for our job were, he would always say, "You just have to be so lazy, you would rather risk having your head blown off, than to have a hard job."