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Old 01-16-2010, 06:43 AM   #1
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Single or twins???

I'm looking at a few mainship 40'ers but cann't decide on the engines Price (singles) or the comfort knowing I have that extra engine to get home if needed (twins) Please I would like all of your opinions No matter what I buy it'll have thrusters THANKS
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:06 AM   #2
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RE: Single or twins???

Greetings,* you will find this subject has been explored in depth on most sites, it may well be the most often asked question.* Try the searching different forums for this info.* What I think you will find is that there are as many reasons for one over the other as there are people expressing them, and ultimately only you can decide which option makes you most comfortable.* Doing the research, and weighing different options is a fun part of the process, enjoy it, and let us know what you finally decide.........................Arctic Traveller
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Old 01-16-2010, 11:41 AM   #3
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Single or twins???

AT above is right, this issue has been beat to death. In fact I started the same thread a couple of months ago. I'm still looking for a boat in the 38 to 40' range and finally gave up on singles which was my*preference*due to economy of operation and maintenance. I gave up because there are just so few boats in my size range that are singles. If a single is your first objective they are out there, but so few you may have to compromise in other areas that I found important. I hope to find a low powered twin that will*satisfy all or nearly satisfy all my requirements. Many more to choose from.

Another important consideration, gas or diesel. This has been discussed as well. My opinion, gas are not as reliable so the type of engine is an important consideration as well.*


Concerning safety, if your cruising is the intercoastal or other inland waterways get a single, buy towing insurance, get a big anchor, and forget about it. If you're going out into open water, engine reliability then should be a far more important consideration and a twin would make a lot of sense. However a twin won't help much if you get bad fuel, it does happen.


You probably won't need a thruster if you get a twin. Very nice on a single though.


Keep us informed.


-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 16th of January 2010 12:43:40 PM


-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 16th of January 2010 12:50:47 PM

-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 16th of January 2010 12:52:51 PM
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:00 PM   #4
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RE: Single or twins???

Quote:
timjet wrote:

I hope to find a low powered twin that will*satisfy all or nearly satisfy all my requirements.
Tim--- There is one advantage to a twin that I rarely see mentioned, but it is definitely an advantage to us, and that is that having a "spare engine" under the floor often makes one's boating partner more secure.* This is the case with my wife, who has flown with me countless times up and down the Inside Passage in a single-engine floatplane with an engine manufacturerd in the 1940s, and has owned single-engine airplanes herself.* So she is not scared of having her life depend on just one set of pistons.

But in the boat we have needed the second engine four times in the last eleven years.* While the shutdowns were not from serious problems---- and one of them was due to my not fully understanding the fuel transfer system--- in each case we were able to proceed home, in some cases a six or eight hour run, with no concerns, no emergency, and no worry.

We started our search for a GB36 not caring if what we got was a single or a twin.* The one we chartered was a single.* The boat that best met our purchase requirements happened to be a twin.* But my wife has told me that when we head out across the Georgia Strait or wherever, she simply feels more confident because we have two engines.* And a wife that is more confident is a wife that is happier and a wife that will enjoy boating a lot more than a wife who is worrying or nervous.
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:24 PM   #5
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RE: Single or twins???

The 40 Mainship ER space is limited with a single, so twins really create a Pandoras box. If the ER is not too crowded, I am a twin advocate, largely in agreement with what Marin mentioned above. Plus it is really hard to find value vessels above 40 that have singles. Luhrs has had some install issues with exhaust*risers draining back into engine,*so look carefully at that if you go Mainhship. The 40 is a nice boat and you may find good bargains in this down market. The FB is hard to beat. Last year in the PNW I*noticed a good 40 drop by at least $50K over a year to get it sold.*
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Old 01-16-2010, 12:32 PM   #6
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RE: Single or twins???

I find twins really help if you have bad fuel. Most twins have a Racor or similar filter setup for each engine. When you have bad fuel and your vacuum gauge sees potential filter plugging, shut her down and swap filters while the other is running. Bad fuel is a ghost bugaboo anyway where I go in the PNW.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:29 PM   #7
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RE: Single or twins???

Thanks for the input

OK right now there are LOTS of mainship 40's with singles out there right now but the wife would not feel safe without a back up engine As for the space issue I know it's tight but she does not have to work on them LOL Of course I wouldn't own anything thats a gasser, diesel ALL the way. As for bad fuel YES it does happen although I'm in the fuel industry I can and do test for algae and I built a system that filters the fuel as it is pumped in my tanks.
To finish up here what do you all think of a mainship 40 overall as a looper boat?
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:01 PM   #8
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RE: Single or twins???

The ONLY boat to buy is one with a single engine. Why buy twice as many parts as you need to go cruising? Not only initial cost but everytime you change filters, belts, hoses etc. you have to pay twice as much for the same number of running hours. Of course if your maintenance schedule is so haphazard that you break down often, then maybe a spare is needed, although who's to say the second engine won't break too?

Take the money you save on routine maintenance and buy a good unlimited towing policy if you don't want to do the maintenance to make your boat reliable. You'll be money ahead.

If you're afraid of breaking down in "bad" water where a tow would be difficult to get, then don't go there. That's pretty easy.

If you can't figure out how to get to and away from the dock without twins, then maybe you shouldn't be boating at all.

Have I hit all the offensive items yet? In all seriousness it is a personal choice that only you can make. For every argument on either side there is a valid argument for the other. I've owned boats with single and with twins. My retirement boat is a single. I like the economy and the extra room in the holy place.

As always, just my opinion and I might be wrong.

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Old 01-16-2010, 07:54 PM   #9
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RE: Single or twins???

Single is fine, but twins don't suck either. I prefer the extra space to move around in the engine bay and the massive savings on parts and fuel.
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Old 01-17-2010, 04:16 AM   #10
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RE: Single or twins???

go to a lab and have a genetic test done to find out if you are a single or twin person ,while your there may as well get them to test you for anchor type as well.

all the advice in the world wont change your genetic predisposition .
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:11 AM   #11
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RE: Single or twins???

"To finish up here what do you all think of a mainship 40 overall as a looper boat?"


Depends ,but not on what engine was maranized and plopped in the boat

For the loop a midships cleat is REQUIRED , it will ease the passage in locks by 95%.

If a nice good sized midships cleat is factory installed , its a fine boat.

Remember the loop has been run for 5 decades in open outboards , so it is more a matter of COMFORT , than single or twin .
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:40 AM   #12
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Single or twins???

FF, we have had this discussion. MAINSHIPS COME WITH A VERY PROPERLY SIZED MIDSHIP CLEAT!!!! I have a Mainship 30 that weighs a whopping 10,000lbs. I would say the cleats on it are at least properly sized if not oversized(if that is possible)....you can even see the midship cleat in my avatar photo.

The Mainship 40 would be an excellent boat for the loop for a couple....my OPINION. I like the fact that it is a sedan...which provides you with one level of living(yes Marin, I realize you have to go down 2 steps while going forward) which can simplify operation of the boat(ie locks,etc).

My biggest issue with ANY BOAT is the way storage is laid out.....DRAWERS!!!! About 10 percent of boat manufacturers did/do it right(opinion). Having 10,000 drawers and cubby holes that can only fit underwear or sox is useless even though they may mathematically contain the same space as 6 big nice deep DRAWERS. Hatteras does a good job of this. 6-9 big deep drawers on each side of the aft cernterline berth. Prairie does as well. CHB/Present/xxx does as well. This is ALWAYS a BIG consideration when I look at a boat that will be lived aboard. Thos are the only brands that I have consistently seen Home sized drawers on. If they don't have big drawers, I am already compromising my boat choice.

-- Edited by Baker on Sunday 17th of January 2010 10:41:31 AM
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:30 AM   #13
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RE: Single or twins???

Quote:
Baker wrote:

I like the fact that it is a sedan...which provides you with one level of living(yes Marin, I realize you have to go down 2 steps while going forward)
Or four very deep ones in the case of a GB--- the drop into our forward cabin is almost twice the height as the drop into our aft cabin so if climbing up and down is physically difficult for a person, they're going to have just as much trouble in a GB sedan as they are in a GB tri-cabin----- just to keep the definitions accurate
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:31 AM   #14
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RE: Single or twins???

I once read that the most problems with diesel comes from fuel issues. So single or twin bad fuel shuts them both down.*
*
Consider a get home.**** Off the generator.** If you are just worying about loosing power on one engine.* Should Still Give the S.O. a warm fuzzy.

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Old 01-18-2010, 01:30 PM   #15
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Single or twins???

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

I like the fact that it is a sedan...which provides you with one level of living(yes Marin, I realize you have to go down 2 steps while going forward)
Or four very deep ones in the case of a GB--- the drop into our forward cabin is almost twice the height as the drop into our aft cabin so if climbing up and down is physically difficult for a person, they're going to have just as much trouble in a GB sedan as they are in a GB tri-cabin----- just to keep the definitions accurate

*



There are at least half as many steps on a sedan than on a tri cabin. *So you will likely only use half as many stairs....pretty simple math. *My mains point is you pretty much just walk around on a sedan standing straight up with very limited climbing and stepping over things. *Wanna go outside? *Just walk right out standing straight up *not climbing any stairs to get out or stepping over any door sills....just walk out. *And the cockpit is the exact same level as the salon. *This is also important in a "panic situation". *The SO having trouble fending off in a lock(or you are by yourself)....just walk/run out and around the corner....no steps...no door sills.....flat land the whole way. *On your tricabin, you may be lucky enough if she is having trouble on the side of the door....you still have a door sill to clear and maybe even limited head clearance as you step over and duck under at the same time. *If she is on the other side(or you are by yourself) you have a lot of real estate to cover and it aint flat. *THAT IS MY POINT!!! *Maneuvering on a boat other than a sedan(which includes Europas ) requires a lot of stepping up and ducking under and climbing over uneven deck surfaces. *To me, that is the MAIN advantage of a Sedan. *Swim platform?????......open the transom door and walk right out....no stairs....walking fully erect.....same exact level.....step into the dinghy....no acrobatic maneuvers required....just step right in. *You walked straight from your salon and straight into your dinghy.....not a step, stair, doorsill, ladder.....NADA.....ya with me here???? *

This is the reason why I think a Sedan(in this case, a Mainship 40) would be an excellent choice for doing the loop. *You are pretty much stopping every night so there is a lot of maneuvering to be done. *There are also MANY locks to transit....so more maneuvers....





-- Edited by Baker on Monday 18th of January 2010 02:44:44 PM
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:54 PM   #16
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Single or twins???

Quote:
Baker wrote:Swim platform?????......open the transom door and walk right out....no stairs....walking fully erect.....same exact level.....step into the dinghy....no acrobatic maneuvers required....just step right in. *You walked straight from your salon and straight into your dinghy.....not a step, stair, doorsill, ladder.....NADA.....ya with me here???? *
Mr. Generality strikes again Try that on a GB sedan and you'll have a big surprise as you walk out that transom door and pitch headlong DOWN a fair distance into your dinghy.* On a GB sedan, even with it's minimal transom door, you still have to climb down to the swimstep to board the dinghy.

Also, some smaller sedans offer no side access from the cabin to the deck, the GB32 being a good example.* Need to get to the bow in a hurry?* Out the back door and all the way round the boat to get there.

As to uneven deck surfaces, on the GB tri-cabins (except earlier models of the GB46 and some of the very first woodys) the main decks are all one level.* No steps up or down.* Same with most of the sedans (but not the GB32) and Europas.* The GB Motoryachts do have a couple of steps up to get from the side deck to the top of the full-width aft cabin.

Like every configuration, sedans have good points and negative points.* But the notion of true one-level living is not always the case.* Now to you or me, a few steps down to the forecabin or the swimstep may make no difference.* But to someone--- and judging from what I read on heavily populated lists like T&T there are a lot of these "someones"--- who has a physical problem with climbing stairs or ladders, many sedans won't help them out any.* Nor will a tri-cabin.* But to imply that all sedans offer easy, one-level accommodations is simply incorrect.* For some people, they can be every bit as difficult to get around on as a tri-cabin or other multi-level configuration.

You need to get out and look at more boats, dude, before you start making blanket "this is they way they all are" statements




-- Edited by Marin on Monday 18th of January 2010 03:07:11 PM
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:09 PM   #17
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Single or twins???

Yep, for a person with no arms or legs(or any non-ambulatory person), you are absolutely correct. The configuration doesn't matter. But, GENERALLY......we are talking the majority of the population(A VERY VAST MAJORITY)....the people that have no trouble walking...a sedan is MUCH MUCH easier to get around on. AND it is STILL easier for somebody that might have a little bit of trouble walking. It is easier to move about on....period. And the vast majority of the boating population doesn't own Grand Banks!!!

My Prairie 29 Sedan had no side door. Still no big deal...out the back door and around the corner. I could RUN with no fear of tripping...

To the OP, I am a fan of Single engine....simply a preference.

-- Edited by Baker on Monday 18th of January 2010 05:31:28 PM
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Old 01-18-2010, 04:41 PM   #18
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RE: Single or twins???

Quote:
Baker wrote:

a sedan is MUCH MUCH easier to get around on. AND it is STILL easier for somebody that might have a little bit of trouble walking.
Total, absolute*BS.* From your posts and pics I gather your idea of a long cruise is five or six hours on the bay with stops at a couple of marinas. Big whoop.

Out here, a short cruise is considered to be two or three weeks to*Desolation*Sound or the Broughtons and a long cruise is three to five months up the Inside*Passage*into SE Alaska, and a good portion of that you're at anchor and have to dinghy to shore.* You live on the boat for a long, long*time.

This past September we had friends from France spend a week on the boat with us during our two-week trip in the Gulf Islands (I don't even consider that trip a cruise).* During that time, each of them probably went up and down the steps into the forward cabin ten or twenty times a day.* Plus they were in and out of*the dinghy several times a day.* During this time, they*never once went into the aft cabin.* So*in terms of up and down,*they were on a sedan.* They are in good shape, this wasn't a problem, and they didn't even mention it.* But if at the end of the week if you'd waltzed up to them on*the dock and given them your "easy living all on one level" speech, they'd have laughed in your face and told you to go*f--- yourself.* In French, of course, so it would have sounded very classy

Now if you*want to consider sedans a "one level boat" for your own purposes, that's fine.* I don't care how you define stuff for yourself.* The problem I have is that when someone new to this kind of boating comes along and asks about the pros and cons of different configurations, your "all one level- never have to climb up or down" definition of a sedan is misleading because all sedans are not like this.

And if a person is actually going to spend time on their boat as opposed to zipping around on the bay for a few hours*when the weather's nice, clambering up and down the forecabin steps for weeks or months day after day can be a consideration even if they happen to have all their arms and legs.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:57 PM   #19
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Single or twins???

Marin, you are dodging my point. Sedans are easier to move about on...PERIOD. I will retract my "one level of living" moniker of that'll make you feel better. How about two levels(excepting a flybridge)....other boats are multiple levels. That does NOT change the FACT that sedans are easier to move about on. Your French guests did more step and "level changes" than just up and down the forward area of the boat. They step out the door(which requires a stepover/duck under maneuver) then what as they go aft to the dinghy??? A walk down an unprotected narrow side deck and then a step down??? If there is no step down then that just translates to a bigger level change to get to the dinghy. You likely have to clear the gun'l and get down some transom mounted step/pads to get to the platform. Not at all a big deal for able bodied people. But to say that the access is exactly the same or even similar is bordering on delusional. A lot of **** can happen on the journey down the side deck and over the gun'l to the swim platform.

Marin, I am in no way saying that sedans are better boats. They are definitely a compromise in space. They are my preference, generally, but that is just a personal preference. My next boat may very well be a sundeck....simply because I want something with lots of space. I would ultimately prefer a pilothouse....somewhat of a sedan with extra space....although it does add an extra interior level(the pilothouse). But pilothouses are generally bigger and expensive.

Now I am not going to get into a measuring contest of who has more cruising experience. You are older than I and I do hope you have more experience than I do. But your assumption that my experience is strictly limited to day jaunts across the bay could be considered offensive(presumptuous, arrogant, condescending,etc)....although I am not offended. I know your style enough to know that you are not speaking with malice or ill will. You're just a little irritated that you have taken an unwinnable position in this argument.... I lived aboard a Prairie 29 Sedan for almost 6 years.....half of it(3 years...that simple math again) with my then girlfriend and now wife. Most people that liveaboard dockside have a tendency to not use their boats as much. We were the opposite. We would untie and go all the time. We used our boat more as a liveaboard then we do as non-liveaboard. That is likely more liveaboard experience than the majority of boaters...FWIW.

I also have the confidence of the public in general that they will do diligent research and not give too much weight to a couple of crotchety f***s(one old, one younger ) on a forum. I seriously doubt people are gonna race out and buy a sedan based on my alleged misinformation.

And I seem to remember an article about 5-8 years ago in PMM about a wheelchair bound boater that singlehands his boat. His choice was a Mainship Pilot 30.....the sedan version....for whatever that is worth.

-- Edited by Baker on Monday 18th of January 2010 07:20:06 PM
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:09 PM   #20
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Single or twins???

Quote:
Baker wrote:

*A walk down an unprotected narrow side deck and then a step down??? If there is no step down then that just translates to a bigger level change to get to the dinghy. You likely have to clear the gun'l and get down some transom mounted step/pads to get to the platform. Not at all a big deal for able bodied people. But to say that the access is exactly the same or even similar is bordering on delusional.
Have you ever even been on a GB, CHB, Puget Trawler, etc.* You can do a frickin' waltz with a partner down the "narrow, unprotected*sidedeck" of the typical trawler.* Well, not quite a waltz, but you get the drift.* The bulwarks are high, the hand rails are high, the side-deck is wide (for the size of the boat).... go walk around on one.* The attached photo is the narrow, unprotected, dangerous, impossible-to-negotiate side deck on our boat. I'm glad you told me how deadly this deck really is--- here I thought it was pretty decent compared to the toe-ledge on most boats.......

With the exception of the GB32, which has a step-down aft cockpit although not much of a step, all the GB sedans have back ends identical to the tri-cabins except for a little short "transom door" in the bulwark.* But the deck to swimstep height is the same in the sedans and the tri-cabins.* On a GB Motoryacht, or sundeck if you will, the aft deck arrangement is very different of course.

Now if you want to talk about sedans with step-down cockpits or a main deck that is the same level as a low-floored cockpit, fine, your point about simply stepping out onto the swimstep can be correct.* But not all sedans are like this, unike what you* stated in your original post.

I've been on several GB sedans, 36s and 42s.* They are no different to move around on than our tri-cabin if you exclude the aft cabin on our boat.* Same side door (yes, you do*have to step up from the main cabin to the side deck), same one-level main deck, same number of steps down into the forecabin.* The only difference beside the step-down aft cabin is the short (it's so short most people don't bother using it) "transom" door in the aft bulwark.

That's GBs.** Other makes of boats have different configurations, and others have similar configurations.

The couple of "advanced years" boaters I've been acquainted with who were starting to have mobility problems traded their GB Europa or tri-cabin for Eastbays.* Still had the multi-step-down forecabin but otherwise it is a more or less one level boat although there is a single step up into the main cabin from the aft deck.** And the lower aft deck and*transom door to the swimstep make access onto and off the boat much easier.* *There are some nice VR movies of the Eastbay series on the GB website.

You're right about the French and German.* Mark Twain described the German language as sounding like "a monkey choking on an orange."* We did some work with Lauda Air a number of years ago and our liason was a drop-dead gorgeous 21-year old intern, probably the prettiest girl I've ever seen bar none.* Everything was great until she'd speak Austrian (which sounds just like German) to her airline co-workers.* The sound simply did not fit the visual at all.* Sitting in*a restaurant in Paris, however, listening to the girls around you speaking French is a vast pleasure in itself regardless of what the girls actually look like.

As to people buying a boat based on what you had to say, I don't know man....People put an awful lot of credibility in what an airline pilot has to say.** It's a curse I guess you'll just have to bear.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 18th of January 2010 08:36:32 PM
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