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Old 12-31-2014, 01:25 PM   #101
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Having started this thread and read all the comments I can say that I am open to a single engine boat with no get-home if the right one becomes available.
What would be the right one? Have you done any serious looking, made offers, gone to survey etc. Or just made TF owners happy by getting lots of hits, it is a business you know.

A few years ago on The Hull Truth, one of the participants with over 6,000 posts was outed as a hit maker. Tis the way the world works today.
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:09 PM   #102
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What would be the right one? Have you done any serious looking, made offers, gone to survey etc. Or just made TF owners happy by getting lots of hits, it is a business you know.

A few years ago on The Hull Truth, one of the participants with over 6,000 posts was outed as a hit maker. Tis the way the world works today.
A Krogen 54 Pilothouse might be the "right one".

I have made two offers. Both twin engines, non stabilized. Neither made it to survey. I'm disappointed that you question my motives - while there may be a few scammers out there most of us are honest and up front.

Richard
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:21 PM   #103
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A Krogen 54 Pilothouse might be the "right one".



I have made two offers. Both twin engines, non stabilized. Neither made it to survey.
I have cruised for a few weeks on a friend's Krogen 54 along the coasts of Maine and Mexico. That pilothouse (let alone flying bridge!) is quite a ways off the water and the couple of (brief) moments where we switched off the stabilizers (Naids, I think) were quickly uncomfortable.
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:52 PM   #104
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I have cruised for a few weeks on a friend's Krogen 54 along the coasts of Maine and Mexico. That pilothouse (let alone flying bridge!) is quite a ways off the water and the couple of (brief) moments where we switched off the stabilizers (Naids, I think) were quickly uncomfortable.
Yes - I can see that the height off the water would be a big factor. I'm pretty much set on getting a boat with stabilizers at this point. Interestingly though, another owner of an unstabilized Krogen 54 told me that it wasn't too bad without them. My experience with my sailboat is that there are often points of sail that are quite uncomfortable. I usually change tack a bit to improve things.

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Old 12-31-2014, 02:54 PM   #105
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What would be the right one? Have you done any serious looking, made offers, gone to survey etc. Or just made TF owners happy by getting lots of hits, it is a business you know.

A few years ago on The Hull Truth, one of the participants with over 6,000 posts was outed as a hit maker. Tis the way the world works today.


This is a forum for the exchange of boat related information. Why d you have to be boat owner?
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:42 PM   #106
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This is a forum for the exchange of boat related information. Why d you have to be boat owner?
Love your JN, single or twin?
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:45 PM   #107
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As I recall, it took decades for the regulators to allow twins instead of four engines!!
No, it didn't. ETOPS (Extended Twin Engine Operations) was enacted relatively quickly in the mid-1980s. Both Boeing and Airbus worked with the regulators to get ETOPS approval for the 767 and A330 initially. The time limits were gradually extended as twin-engine reliability generated more data.

And four engines was not previous requirement. Three engines were also acceptable for long-range, over-water operations prior to ETOPS. Hence the DC-10/MD-11 and L1011.

Once the 767 and A330 set the precedent, ETOPS approval for other models quickly followed. The 777 was ETOPS-approved from the day it went into service. The 737 obtained ETOPS approval and operators like Aloha Airlines began using them between the US west coast and Hawaii in the late 1990s. I produced a lot of videos supporting our and the airlines' ETOPS efforts, and later produced videos about Aloha's Oakland-Honolulu 737 operations when they first began.
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Old 12-31-2014, 05:13 PM   #108
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One engine/two engine the debate continues. To me it is all about peace of mind. That is why I have two engines, two VHFs, two handheld VHFs, Epirb, Lifevests, Dingy with motor, flares, first aid kit, TowBoat US, spare parts out the yingyang and I know I'm leaving something out. If one engine falls, I have the other. If the second fails, I'm calling for a Tow. If I'm out a reach of a tow, I'm calling out for help on the radio. I will continue to use any and all means necessary to fix the problem or get help. One engine guys, just have one less step than I do and probably a fatter wallet!
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:51 PM   #109
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Windmill, you seem to have addressed your insecurities.
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Old 12-31-2014, 09:57 PM   #110
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Love your JN, single or twin?
Single 8V71, thanks for asking
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:10 PM   #111
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Think I'll have another heart transplanted into my chest, as it appears obvious that having just one will never do
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:41 PM   #112
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I agree on the fatter wallet I could not afford twins. Marine parts can eat you out of a boating season in a hurry. If you truly plan on going where no else every goes or lives why are you going there in the first place? Most locations you might tow a local or they will tow you. The more remote usually the more friendly people are. Good luck on finding a boat and run it about 500 hrs. If you are still running you will have work most the problems out. The least will be the motor or motors I bet.
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Old 01-01-2015, 04:48 AM   #113
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In the 16 years we've owned our twin engine boat we've not found the operating cost to be much higher--- or in some cases any higher--- than the costs acquaintences have with single engine boats. For the most part, you buy twice as much lube oil and two times the number of oil and fuel filters. Compared to the overall cost of owning a boat, lube oil and filters are free.

Fuel burn is not twice that of a single, assuming the same type of engine in the same type of boat. We run our two engines at 1650 rpm to get 8 knots. People we know with the single engine version of the same boat we have run their engine at 2,000 rpm to get 8 knots. And their one engine is working harder than each of our two engines. So as near as rough calculations can figure, we burn perhaps 1.5 times as much fuel as the single-engine owners (of the same boat). In the overall cost of owning a boat, that difference is irrelevant.

While we have occasionally had to replace ancilliary components on our engines--- oil and transmission heat exchangers, the water pump belt, a pinholed fuel injection pipe--- these never occurred at the same time on both engines. So compared to the overall cost of owning a boat, the occasional additional parts required were an insignificant cost.

There were three times when having two engines resulted in a cost that was significantly higher than if we'd had just one. One was when we had the exhaust systems that were on the boat when we bought it replaced with new, custom-made fiberglass systems. One was when we had the motor mounts on both engines replaced, a once-every-thirty-years-expense, and once was when we had both raw water pumps replaced with new, one-piece pumps (we went ahead and changed both engines even though only one actually had a problem with its pump drive coupler).

So while it's true that over time, two engines will cost more than one in terms of maintenance and repair, this extra cost will be spread out over so many years that it is insignificant.

And.... our "spare" engine under the floor has prevented us from having to come home on the end of a very expensive rope four times. What we didn't have to spend on tows--- a couple of which would have been very long ones and extemely inconvenient--- probably more than made up for whatever running two engines vs one costs us.

And.... we have friends with single engine boats who have had to spend far more repairing their single-engine setup, plus towing costs, than we have spent on our two engines.

So based on our 16 years of experience with a twin-engine boat, we don't buy the "costs twice as much" theory at all. It certainly CAN cost twice as much depending on the condition of the engines and drive trains and how the boat is operated and maintained. But it's not an automatic given.
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:40 AM   #114
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If cost of ownership is the main concern then hands down go single engine. In my experience we had to replace one of our engines to the tune of 25G. So our twin did cost us a bunch more, but what if we were a single engine and that engine failed? Would we not be in the same boat then cost wise, pun intended?
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:01 AM   #115
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twin vs. single

I have read a few articles about this. The one point I remember and think it to be true. Usually, if you loose an engine it's a fuel thing. SO.....you will probably loose both. I can't say, because I have always had a single engine. I choose to keep my engine well maintained. The times I got in trouble was fuel or the impeller. One time I ran out of fuel! That was embarrassing. Boat US Tow came with 5 gallons of fuel. I had to bleed the engine and that was that. One time I got some bad fuel, I changed the both filters and managed to get home. I had the fuel polished. The impeller is self explanatory. That's why I like diesel engines. You keep the fuel clean and enough air and it will usually be running. In 25 years, I had to get towed off the bottom a few times (in my sail boat days), but the times I needed to be towed I was glad Boat US Tow was there.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:08 AM   #116
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I promise I'm not a troller in the trawler forum. I understand that the single vs twin engine (or get home) is a quasi-religious question. However, it's going to factor into my decision and I'd love some input.

So here's my question - and it's not "which is better?" Rather, what do people do when they're single engine breaks down? Here are some options that come to my mind

1) Call for a tow home - this is ok if you're in range of a tow company. I have had the BoatUS Gold Towing service for over a decade and wouldn't be without it

[Let's assume you're making a coastal passage and not in tow boat range]

2) Fix the engine. The most likely things to stop a well maintained cruising engine can be fixed by the well-prepared skipper who has spares (fuel filters, pumps, hoses, impellers, etc)

3) Is there a number 3?

It's a serious concern for me - since I intend on making coastal passages and expect to be out of tow boat range. However, if people do this without undue risk then I'd like to be able to consider single engine boats.

Thanks

Richard
Above is the original post/question for this thread.

It's amazing how we can't resist diving into the single vs twin debate, even when the original post asked that we set that aside and only address the questions of "what do you do when your single engine dies", which I think is a really good question.

So, in an effort to distract us away from further single/dual temptation, and considering that we have an anchor debate already going.....

What micron fuel filters do you use, and why? There, that should distract us for a while...
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:08 AM   #117
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I have read a few articles about this. The one point I remember and think it to be true. Usually, if you loose an engine it's a fuel thing. .
Quite simply a self perpetuating myth. Unless of course:
  • You fill up routinely in the Bahamas or Mexico,
  • have dirty 30+ year old tanks or
  • a deck leak in the around the filling apparatus .
In the half dozen or so times I've had an engine become balky or dead weight it was never fuel. Years ago when a youngster and worked in the boat repair business ditto, hardly ever bad fuel.

The worst recent engine experience I personally ever had was when a diesel engine became recalcitrant and I called the dealer. FUEL, it has to be water in the FUEL! It can't be the engine! Over and over again and sending me in wrong directions as to real problem and solution.

Those who sell polishing systems, magnets, additives and write articles on the virtues of product line will thump drum saying the "bad fuel is the Number 1 cause of diesel engine shutdowns." Just advertising BS like LSMFT (remember that one?) or put a tiger in your tank.

When supposed gurus like A, B and C state the same just be cynical and say "really." There may some consulting/shill money hidden there.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:15 AM   #118
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What micron fuel filters do you use, and why? There, that should distract us for a while...
If I was lucky enough to have a Tier III common rail like some - 30u, 10u and on engine (Fleetguards) and not a Racor. And a high volume polishing system and day tank like some more fortunate are so vessel equipped. And then of course a really good get home system
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Old 01-01-2015, 12:38 PM   #119
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In the 16 years we've owned our twin engine boat we've not found the operating cost to be much higher--- or in some cases any higher--- than the costs acquaintences have with single engine boats. For the most part, you buy twice as much lube oil and two times the number of oil and fuel filters. Compared to the overall cost of owning a boat, lube oil and filters are free.

Fuel burn is not twice that of a single, assuming the same type of engine in the same type of boat. We run our two engines at 1650 rpm to get 8 knots. People we know with the single engine version of the same boat we have run their engine at 2,000 rpm to get 8 knots. And their one engine is working harder than each of our two engines. So as near as rough calculations can figure, we burn perhaps 1.5 times as much fuel as the single-engine owners (of the same boat). In the overall cost of owning a boat, that difference is irrelevant.

While we have occasionally had to replace ancilliary components on our engines--- oil and transmission heat exchangers, the water pump belt, a pinholed fuel injection pipe--- these never occurred at the same time on both engines. So compared to the overall cost of owning a boat, the occasional additional parts required were an insignificant cost.

There were three times when having two engines resulted in a cost that was significantly higher than if we'd had just one. One was when we had the exhaust systems that were on the boat when we bought it replaced with new, custom-made fiberglass systems. One was when we had the motor mounts on both engines replaced, a once-every-thirty-years-expense, and once was when we had both raw water pumps replaced with new, one-piece pumps (we went ahead and changed both engines even though only one actually had a problem with its pump drive coupler).

So while it's true that over time, two engines will cost more than one in terms of maintenance and repair, this extra cost will be spread out over so many years that it is insignificant.

And.... our "spare" engine under the floor has prevented us from having to come home on the end of a very expensive rope four times. What we didn't have to spend on tows--- a couple of which would have been very long ones and extemely inconvenient--- probably more than made up for whatever running two engines vs one costs us.

And.... we have friends with single engine boats who have had to spend far more repairing their single-engine setup, plus towing costs, than we have spent on our two engines.

So based on our 16 years of experience with a twin-engine boat, we don't buy the "costs twice as much" theory at all. It certainly CAN cost twice as much depending on the condition of the engines and drive trains and how the boat is operated and maintained. But it's not an automatic given.

Agree to Marin, at least with regard to costs for operations and normal maintenance.
(O.k. you should not ask me when I just finished oil and filters on the first FL but only 50% of the work done)

Fuel burn:
Can even be less with twins, depending on the speed range you are interested in.
If we run the 8 knots which is our hull speed (and what is above our normal "Marschfahrt" -sorry, missing the English word) we run our twin FL120 at ~1700/1750 rpm, burning 2 liters per nautical mile. Same boat, single FL120, runs above 2200 rpm, fuel consumption more than 10% above ours.
Slowing down to 7 knots (~ 1400 rpm w twins / ~ 1650 rpm w single) the single version burns 10% less fuel...

However we normally cruise in a speed range where a single engine would have an advantage in fuel consumption. But we appreciate the plus in "getting home ability" which comes with the twins.
And I guess who ever tried to fix even a nuisance issue in the machine room of a small boat dancing in high swell will do the same...

All valid as long as it doesn't come to major repairs - let's cross fingers!


best regards / med venlig hilsen
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Old 01-01-2015, 12:50 PM   #120
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... getting home ability:
We should not focus on the what if engine failed question only.
Please consider in addition the plus in power and maneuverability which might be very helpful if out there it has become worse than expected.



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