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Old 12-29-2014, 12:43 PM   #81
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Assuming you are referring to JUST the engines, then - theoretically - yes.

But in the real world, off-side maintenance on twins suffers from accessibility. Out of sight, out of mind may apply - if not to you, then to the POs. It's easy (on my boat) to get all around the engine with an IR thermometer while running - I cannot imagine a twin owner attempting that. Off-side coolant leaks? Oil leaks? Corrosion? Any type of connection at all? Definitely not equivalent to single.

And then we get into maintenance costs. Some folks here do everything "by the book", others are on a budget - or their POs were on budgets.

And that's just the engines themselves. Running gear...there is truly no comparison to a single keel-protected prop.

And then there's the real world maneuverability of a twin with small rudders running with one engine.

Honestly, I (personally) wouldn't be more confident with twin engines - and suspect that they may bring a false confidence to the less experienced.

There's an old saying amongst pilots concerning twin engined planes: the second engine will bring you to the scene of the accident!

Admittedly a twin engined planes try to turn turtle when one engine fails.
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:18 PM   #82
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Greetings,
Mr. ref. Yes, I was referring to JUST the engines. You DO make valid points regarding maintenance and accessibility outboard of twins but as to failure rate for JUST the engines, the same, as ANY engines reliability is maintenance based.
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Old 12-29-2014, 02:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by refugio View Post

But in the real world, off-side maintenance on twins suffers from accessibility. . Running gear...there is truly no comparison to a single keel-protected prop.

And then there's the real world maneuverability of a twin with small rudders running with one engine.
While this is purely anecdotal, we know more single engine boaters (including sail) who have fouled or damaged their one prop or rudder than we know twin engine boaters who've fouled or damaged one of their props, struts, or rudders.

What this perhaps tells me is that the operators of twins are more vigillant at the helm knowing the potential vulnerability of their running gear, and the owners of singles rely too much on the theory of keel protection of their running gear to the point where the reality of running a boat in waters containing debris, pot lines, etc. bites them in the ass.
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Old 12-29-2014, 03:31 PM   #84
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Based on my 12 years of assistance towing...twins pulled off sand bars regularly require towing for repairs...the singles with full keels rarely do.

At least where going aground for most is at least an annual event, if not mothly, weekly or every outing event ...for some.

There's more to it than theory....but just because you own a twin doesn't mean you would have suffered any more damage than owning singles your whole life... depends on where and how you boat.

But without any doubt in my mind, singles with full keel protection (not all have it) are less likely to occur damage in many situations where a twin would....everything equal.

I often shove my Shamrock keel drive up on a sand/mudbank to get to a grounded vessel...and when backing off with a towline the boat gets pulled around and shoved into a sand shelf that ultimately stalls the engine in some cases. I seriously doubt a twin would last all summer with that abuse without repetitive repairs.
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Old 12-29-2014, 03:56 PM   #85
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One of the nice design features of twin-engine Grand Banks boats is that the keel is lower by a fair amount than the props and rudders. Also, if the boat should go around and a falling tide let it tip to the side to rest on the keel and chine, the prop, struts, shaft and rudder on the low side wil be tucked up inside the "triangle" formed by the keel, hull, and bottom and so will not touch the ground (assuming a smooth-ish surface under the boat). This is due to the running gear of GB twins being fairly close in to the centerline.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:02 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by refugio View Post
Assuming you are referring to JUST the engines, then - theoretically - yes.

But in the real world, off-side maintenance on twins suffers from accessibility. Not on all Out of sight, out of mind may apply - if not to you, then to the POs. It's easy (on my boat) to get all around the engine with an IR thermometer while running My two too- I cannot imagine a twin owner attempting that. Really Off-side coolant leaks? Oil leaks? Corrosion? Any type of connection at all? Definitely not equivalent to single.

And then we get into maintenance costs. Some folks here do everything "by the book", others are on a budget - or their POs were on budgets.

And that's just the engines themselves. Running gear...there is truly no comparison to a single keel-protected prop. How about all these recent pictures of flimsy keels that are appearing on trawler forum that if even a mild grounding will take out the rudder

And then there's the real world maneuverability of a twin with small mine are big rudders running with one engine.

Honestly, I (personally) wouldn't be more confident with twin engines - and suspect that they may bring a false confidence to the less experienced. Or more silly comments from the unenlightened
These types of erroneous statements are why this subject gets beat to death
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:33 PM   #87
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Age of the boat should be a consideration. I have done deliveries of a few Nordhavn's, one from Key West to Virginia and felt comfortable offshore on a 5 year old single engine boat. However I would be concerned running a 15 to 25 year old single or twin boat in an area where inlets are few and far between. Many failures have nothing to do with the internal parts of the engines but with steering, transmissions, cooling, fitting on the engine and more. It may not be lack of maintenance but simple metal fatigue.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:54 PM   #88
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Age of the boat should be a consideration. I have done deliveries of a few Nordhavn's, one from Key West to Virginia and felt comfortable offshore on a 5 year old single engine boat. However I would be concerned running a 15 to 25 year old single or twin boat in an area where inlets are few and far between. Many failures have nothing to do with the internal parts of the engines but with steering, transmissions, cooling, fitting on the engine and more. It may not be lack of maintenance but simple metal fatigue.
How true...

Had a delivery once and didn't make it from the slip to the fuel dock 200 feet away without both engines overheating.

Then I got the truth about the history of the boat from the locals.....on the hard for 3 years with no one around to do anything....not what I was told/

The impellers had turned to dust.

So without an accurate history of maintenance and treatment...all boats can be a crapshoot.
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Old 12-29-2014, 07:57 PM   #89
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There's an old saying amongst pilots concerning twin engined planes: the second engine will bring you to the scene of the accident!

Admittedly a twin engined planes try to turn turtle when one engine fails.

Nothing like a bit of tongue in cheek. I note the twins on your vessel are just purring away
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Old 12-29-2014, 08:07 PM   #90
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Nothing like a bit of tongue in cheek. I note the twins on your vessel are just purring away
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:37 AM   #91
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Based on my 12 years of assistance towing...twins pulled off sand bars regularly require towing for repairs...the singles with full keels rarely do.

At least where going aground for most is at least an annual event, if not mothly, weekly or every outing event ...for some.

There's more to it than theory....but just because you own a twin doesn't mean you would have suffered any more damage than owning singles your whole life... depends on where and how you boat.

But without any doubt in my mind, singles with full keel protection (not all have it) are less likely to occur damage in many situations where a twin would....everything equal.
One of the factors we took into account before our purchase, knowing that with adventure and going off track, comes groundings and other inadvertent shenanigans.

You guys saw the picture of my prop

I'm pleased to say that I haven't been aground in at least 3,000 nm, but who's counting.
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:00 AM   #92
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With arguably the best maintenance in the world and the best operators on the planet, Transport Category aircraft are required to have a minimum of two engines to meet the regulatory failure analysis requirement. Anyone interested in putting their family aboard a single engine 777?
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:28 AM   #93
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With arguably the best maintenance in the world and the best operators on the planet, Transport Category aircraft are required to have a minimum of two engines to meet the regulatory failure analysis requirement. Anyone interested in putting their family aboard a single engine 777?
As I recall, it took decades for the regulators to allow twins instead of four engines!!
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:52 AM   #94
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As I recall, it took decades for the regulators to allow twins instead of four engines!!
True, although the reason had more to do with the huge excess thrust capability and efficiency of modern high bypass turbofans than the reliability issue.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:15 AM   #95
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With arguably the best maintenance in the world and the best operators on the planet, Transport Category aircraft are required to have a minimum of two engines to meet the regulatory failure analysis requirement. Anyone interested in putting their family aboard a single engine 777?
What about all those people driving around in single engine cars?

Yours is not quite an apples to apples comparison - I'd far rather be in a boat that has lost power than in a 777 that has lost power.

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Old 12-31-2014, 11:33 AM   #96
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What about all those people driving around in single engine cars?

Yours is not quite an apples to apples comparison - I'd far rather be in a boat that has lost power than in a 777 that has lost power.

Richard
Yes, a bit of hyperbole. Lots of single engine general aviation aircraft as well. Just making the case that there is unquestionably less risk with redundant systems. At how much risk are you willing to expose your loved ones.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:40 AM   #97
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Yes, a bit of hyperbole. Lots of single engine general aviation aircraft as well. Just making the case that there is unquestionably less risk with redundant systems. At how much risk are you willing to expose your loved ones.
I understand the literary style ;-)

But in practice, how much risk are we really talking about? How many lives are lost as a result of single engine failure in a trawler? How much safer are your loved ones driving down the freeway? I wonder which has a higher fatality rate per hour?

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Old 12-31-2014, 11:49 AM   #98
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One of the factors we took into account before our purchase, knowing that with adventure and going off track, comes groundings and other inadvertent shenanigans.

You guys saw the picture of my prop

I'm pleased to say that I haven't been aground in at least 3,000 nm, but who's counting.

Running aground is quite common for those who boat on rivers, happened to us several times when living near St Louis. And many others too. On larger vessels there, twins are the combination of choice because one can't get anywhere at 7 knots.

We as did others, became quite adept at not damaging props and underwater things attached to the boat. The real damage was done by drunks at planing speeds straying off course. My many low speed excursions onto the sand and soft mud never hurt the gear but filled the strainers with crap that had to be cleaned out. Heck we intentionally pulled our twin engine vessels onto the sand bars to party.

As the years went on and rocky sea water bottoms became the norm, so did caution and getting a twin engine vessel whose keel is about 14" below the props. Yes I'd dearly love to have a big single like Delfin or Twisted. But these singles along with Selenes, NT and AT are very expensive. Twins in the 50' range are much more prolific and many less $$100K than the aforementioned.

So for us, twins are an economic decision - way cheaper and with a larger buyer's pool than the similar sized singles we lust after. The singles in the +50' range we have pursued all have get homes, that is what the buyers of these types of vessels desire too.

And Richard, some of us have many more miles on our twins than single engine owners would ever contemplate and have never run big time aground. Why should we, it could damage the active stabilizers.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:52 AM   #99
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I understand the literary style ;-)

But in practice, how much risk are we really talking about? How many lives are lost as a result of single engine failure in a trawler? How much safer are your loved ones driving down the freeway? I wonder which has a higher fatality rate per hour?

Richard
Back to apples and oranges. Each operating environment is it's own subset. Also, redundant power systems are not as readily available in the automotive world. In the current used boat market place single engine boats are often priced higher than twins in the same hull. Why? Because buyer/operators place fuel economy and operating costs above safety.
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Old 12-31-2014, 12:24 PM   #100
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Back to apples and oranges. Each operating environment is it's own subset. Also, redundant power systems are not as readily available in the automotive world. In the current used boat market place single engine boats are often priced higher than twins in the same hull. Why? Because buyer/operators place fuel economy and operating costs above safety.
I'm not sure I made myself clear. I was referring to the overall risk of driving a car on the freeway - the risk of death by accident not engine failure. I was trying to make the point that the chances of death or injury to people on single engine trawlers as a result of engine failure is likely very low compared to other risks they face in daily life. In an absolute sense the risk isn't that high.

Having started this thread and read all the comments I can say that I am open to a single engine boat with no get-home if the right one becomes available.

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