Closed Thread
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-21-2016, 12:46 PM   #41
Scraping Paint
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
A lot of people outside the industry today don't realize how capable, sophisticated, and realistic flight simulators are and have been for many years now.

We produced a number of videos in support of Boeing's bid for the new tanker. I directed one that highlighted the features and capabilites of the flight deck, which while in a 767 airframe features 787 dislplays and flight management systems. We shot several scenarios highlighing these features and capabilities using one of our full-motion simulators.

During the shooting the subject matter expert and I dreamed up a scenario on the spot, which was what happens if a SAM is fired at the tanker while it is refueling aircraft? It was not called for in the script but we shot it anyway just because we could.

The procedure when a SAM launch is detected is to instantly break off the refueling and take immmediate evasive action, the more rapid and violent the better. In the case of the tanker, the action on the part of the flight crew is to roll the plane partway over onto its back and then haul the nose down into a near vertical dive. This involves using the full travel of the yoke immediately.

Boeing's flight control philosophy allows the flight crew to do this. Airbus' flight control philosophy does not. (This has nothing to do with fly-by-wire, by the way, that's just a control surface activation system; we both use it although not in the 767).

The full motion simulator will do everything the actual plane can do. Its programing will not let it do anythinng the actual plane cannot do.

So we did the maneuver, with the first officer "spotting" a SAM lauanch and then they went through the procedure I've described. It was very violent and when they flipped the plane over and dove every alarm on the flight deck went off. But the plane did exactly what was asked of it.

An Airbus A330, the competing aircraft, will not do this at all unless most of the flight management system is disengaged which among other things involves pulling a whole bunch of circuit breakers. A SAM is not going to conveniently circle around for awhile waiting for the flight crew to do this.

The editor just for grins stuck this scenario in his first cut of the video. When the Boeing tanker folks saw it they went bananas because it clearly and very effectively illustrated a real-world scenario that nobody so far had thought of. It also illustrated a very critical difference between our produt and the competing product.

Much later we learned that this scenario, cooked up on the spot during shooting because we knew the capabilities of the airplane and the simulator, played a major role in convincing the customer (the Air Force) that the 767 tanker was the better platform.

Obviously it was not the deciding factor--- politics, economics and whole lot of other non-airplane issues eventually won the day--- but in terms of separating our product from the competition, this one maneuver did this very, very effectively and dramatically.

I tell this story to illustrate the tremendous capability of simulation. So the airlines have the tools, or have access to them, to train their pilots any way they want. The increasing de-emphasis worldwide on stick and rudder flying and the increasing emphasis on systems management is not due to any deficiencies in the simulators. They simply aren't used in this manner but instead are used to train pilots in all the sophistication and subtleties of the flight management system. In other words, they are increasingly becoming system management trainers, not flight trainers.

This may change to a degree as the consequences of insufficient stick and rudder training and experience become more obvious and more frequent. But given the way I have been watching this industry go for the last 37 years, I suspect that any "flying" training will be a temporary fix (and an expensive one) and the real solution will be as I described earler; simply remove humans entirely from the physical flying of the airplane.

This industry does not view humans as the ultimate solution to anything. It views technolgy as the ultimate solution to everything.

And, I would venture to say, the same is true in the boating world, at least in the upper end of it with cruising boats and yachts.

Marin is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 01:11 PM   #42
koliver's Avatar
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,448
The more we advance in technology, the more we stay the same in attitude.

To demonstrate:
One of my early boats was a Star. 23' olympic racing class sailboat. I joined a fleet sailing in English Bay. One of our number (not me) had been racing in English Bay and encountered an inattentive power boater that came out of Vancouver Harbour and was heading more or less for the Bellbouy off Point Grey. The Star was the stand on boat, for more reasons than simply being under sail, but the power boat wasn't paying any attention to his surroundings. When close enough to be sure the Power boat wasn't going to alter course, my friend threw a beer bottle at him, and altered course (not necessarily in that order). Got his attention, as the guy came out on the back to see who had thrown something at him, but still didn't alter course. This was 1972.

koliver is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 02:17 PM   #43
City: Melbourne, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,090
My office overlooked the Melbourne FL marina for a while. During the late 90's before the telecom bubble burst, I saw numerous accidents where .com'ers bought a bigger boat than their experience and then tried to dock it.

The marina is quite protected with a slight current, and time after time, these guys are knocking out each others windows with bow rollers and such. You would think it was the bumper boat rides at Mario Andretti's park.

One guy was so bad he never took his boat out. He used it for parties, always docked. I guess three wrecks in the harbor was his limit.

So, what I started to say at the beginning was...

If joysticks is what helps them not bash each other up, then so be it. The industry as a whole will be better off with increased sales. The flip side to that is, what do they do when it blows a fuse and they have no inkling on how to find their slip? I guess they can drop anchor in the river and dinghy in to the dock.
stubones99 is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 03:05 PM   #44
TF Site Team
Baker's Avatar
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,813
Marin, there is no de-emphasis on stick and rudder flying. If anything, a re-emphasis.
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 03:35 PM   #45
Phil Fill's Avatar
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
My wife and I were metro sexual yuppies that bought a boat beyond our experience knowledge. Just saying. Thank goodness for the bow thruster which has a joy stick. Also the autopilot has a soft pad that controls the pump that I mostly use instead of that big wheel. A stern thrust is still on the want list.

Many of the newer boats the helm wheel power an electrical pump, which could be replaced with a joy stick. Also newer larger boats have a remote that controls the helm, throttle, shift, engine rpm thrusters that a person can take with them. So the technology has been around for quite a while.
Phil Fill is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:02 PM   #46
TF Site Team
Baker's Avatar
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,813
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Depends on what part of the world and what airline you're talking about. I think you would have an extremely rude awakening in Asia, SE Asia, India, Africa, etc. And when you roll in cultural issues on the flight deck (one of the primary contributors to the Asiana 777 hitting the riprap at SFO) it is a very worrisome situation.

The people I get my information from are not individual airline pilots like yourself but industry analysts who take a much larger view of what's going on at airlines of all types, not just the majors, all over the planet.

You can believe me or not, but the people here and at Airbus and at organizations like IATA are extremely worried about the developing trends that are being seen all over the planet with regards to training, the rapidly escalating shortage of pilots, and the ballooning demand for air travel particularly in those regions I mentioned. Something has to give and what's giving is experience and knowledge on the flight deck.

One of the major airframe manufacturers recently refused to sell one of their airplane models to an airline in one of these regions specifically because they knew the pilots and flight department at this airline--- the national airline of its home country--- were not up to the task of operating them safely. The manufacturer actually turned down a substantial sale because of safety concerns with the airline.

And the US air transportation industry is not exempt from this global trend. In the course of various projects I've been shown a number of specific examples at US carriers, large and small, where inexperience and/or less-than-ideal training resulted in a serious incident-- and in some cases an accident--- that would most likely have not occurred had the emphasis not been put on operating the systems but on flying the airplane. Some of these have been a at carriers one might never suspect as being susceptible to this problem.
Trust me....I started writing a reply to your other posts that addressed all of this and did not feel it was worth the time. I will not change your mind. And while you think you have an inside track to the heartbeat of airline flying, you do not. It would not be a "rude awakening for me".....I am on the front line of this sh*t!!!!! My azz is on the line as is my passengers. DO you not think we take this sh*t seriously??? Do not patronize me like you do everybody else on this forum. You are not the end all to everything aviation on this forum!!!!...I don't care what imaginary friends you have in the industry. I live this sh*t....breath this sh*t. And am up close and personal when the sh*t gets real. Meanwhile YOU sit in your cubicle while I am reliably and safely delivering 190 people to their destination in conditions that would make you sh*t your britches....conditions that we do not even think twice about....because we have seen it over and over and over...and because we are highly trained and highly experienced. SO go on....slam the profession with all of your arrogance and ignorance. And trust me.....I am well aware of how we f*ck is at the heart of our safety infrastructure.
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:14 PM   #47
Ted's Avatar
City: Campbell River
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Okisollo
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 587
Doe's anyone see a trend similarity to the
"Foundation" series Galactic Empire by Isaac Asimov?

Ted is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:23 PM   #48
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Don't sugarcoat it John. Damn it, tell us how you really feel.

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:37 PM   #49
cardude01's Avatar
City: Victoria TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bijou
Vessel Model: 2008 Island Packet steadysailer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,463
I'm not an expert on this, but I think Baker just dropped the mike and walked off stage.

cardude01 is offline  
Old 01-21-2016, 07:00 PM   #50
TF Site Team
FlyWright's Avatar
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,800

FlyWright is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:07 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012