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Old 06-29-2015, 02:07 PM   #81
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M1 Garand in 30-06
.
Two of the dumbest things I did as a college kid were sell my Austin Healey 3000 Mk II and sell my National Match M1 Garand. I bought the NMM1 from a gun store in Ft. Collins, CO before my freshman year at Colorado State for $65 and the following year when I decided to go beck to Hawaii and finish college there I sold it back to the same gun store for..... $65.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:14 PM   #82
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Two of the dumbest things I did as a college kid were sell my Austin Healey 3000 Mk II and sell my National Match M1 Garand. I bought the NMM1 from a gun store in Ft. Collins, CO before my freshman year at Colorado State for $65 and the following year when I decided to go beck to Hawaii and finish college there I sold it back to the same gun store for..... $65.
Hmmm . . . . got any more cars or guns for sale?
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:11 PM   #83
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...
Eskimos used to hunt polar bears with .22s and it worked if they hit the bear in the right place. You can probably kill a big charging animal with one of Monty Python's pointed sticks if you get lucky. ...
My understanding is that Eskimos favored the 22 Hornet, a small center-fire round designed for varmints, not the 22 rimfire cartridge which is considerably less powerful. The Hornet was used in some WWII survival kits.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:23 PM   #84
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I own 2 Garands

A CMP Service Grade, +- $1000 and another in Match Grade, ssssshhhh, not putting anything incriminating in writing.

And in ALL seriousness I would prefer the 45-70 to the SG, even if it were in 3.5 inch.

Simple ballistics....

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Two of the dumbest things I did as a college kid were sell my Austin Healey 3000 Mk II and sell my National Match M1 Garand. I bought the NMM1 from a gun store in Ft. Collins, CO before my freshman year at Colorado State for $65 and the following year when I decided to go beck to Hawaii and finish college there I sold it back to the same gun store for..... $65.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:38 PM   #85
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Back in the early '80s, approx. '83 IIRC, Alaska Fish & Game did a penetration study of various firearms/cartridges available at the time. Purpose was to determine minimum recommended armament for their field folks, and especially in light of their current (at the time) hiring of new/young people often with little firearms knowledge or practice, ans also considered slighter stature as a possibility with new some female employees.

The study results were published in Rifle Magazine.

So much for memory. Like a steel sieve, sometimes...

The article -- A Study in Stopping Power -- was published in Rifle #95, Sep-Oct 1983. Study by John F. Thilenius and William R. Meehan, on behalf of the Forest Service in Alaska.

The top four were .458 Win Mag, .460 Wby Mag, .375 H&H Mag, and .33 Win Mag, in that order. With several different bullet weights and styles, the .338 and .375 also took the next 6 places. The .30-06 was 11th (220-grain bullet) and 12th (180-grain). Then the .444 Marlin (13th place), .358 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and another .375 H&H (270-grain bullet).

The .45-70 U.S. was next, at 17th and again at 19th, both with 300 grain bullets but different styles, and yet again at 27th and 30th with the 405-grain bullet (again, different styles).

Some of the others interspersed in that range included the .358 Norma Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, .308 Win, .300 Wby Mag, .350 Rem Mag, and the 12-gauge 2" shell with slugs... at 26th on the list.

The .44 Rem Mag in a handgun came in at 32nd on the list.

The Marlin M1895 got good marks for handiness and rapidity. The .45-70 got OK marks, with observation that factory loads weren't wonderful (in that era) and with a hope that "perhaps the current reinterest in .45-70 rifles will cause the manufacturers to produce a more suitable bullet." Actually, one of the .405-grain loads penetrated deepest of all candidates, but it didn't expand well and that counted against it using their formula for comparison. (This was well before Buffalo Bore, Garrett, et al, started loading for brown bear... so to speak).

The short, pump (slide-action) shotgun also got good marks for handiness and rapidity. It didn't score as well as many others, due to the formula, partly because of low energy, partly because of low expansion. But they also observed in their notes that the .672" rifled slugs were already "expanded" when fired, so the formula outcome was "slightly misleading."

Rifled slugs were deemed potentially suitable; pellets (00), not so much except perhaps at VERY close ranges.

At the time, most (all, I think) of the other rifles were bolt-action, so a lever Marlin and a pump Remington (or whatever it was; doesn't say) could well be seen to be handier and faster, especially for people who can't cycle a bolt-action rifle quickly from the shoulder.

The .44 Rem Mag was the only handgun cartridge they could "recommend" for carry, and even that was not to be considered to primary protection. All other handgun rounds (at the time -- this predated the Casull, the .50 Desert Eagle, the .475 and other Linebaugh cartridges, the .480 Ruger, and the .460 and 500 S&W cartridges) were lesser in capability, not seen as useful. The one "possible exception" was the .41 Rem Mag, but they couldn't fully test it.

The conclusion was mostly a recommendation to carry the highest one on the list one could shoot well.

Probably more data that anyone here really wanted...

-Chris
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:39 PM   #86
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Am I reading that stopping power is the key? If so ...with a shotgun...I'm guessing that is with a slug?

Is it any harder to hit a charging bear with a rifle than a shotgun loaded with slugs?


Again...only in fun because.... I get it...whatever you guys decide.


For personal protection...a gun is only one layer of the protective onion shell....make sure you work on all the others too.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:49 PM   #87
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Am I reading that stopping power is the key? If so ...with a shotgun...I'm guessing that is with a slug?

Is it any harder to hit a charging bear with a rifle than a shotgun loaded with slugs?

According to the AK study, yes... qualified with whether one can shoot the firearm well or not.

Yes slugs, for the shotgun data, except for very close ranges -- e.g., 15' or less, where they concluded 9 pellets of 00 Buck would perhaps (perhaps) act more like a single slug.

Depends on other variables, like sights, barrel, etc. A rifled shotgun barrel can be very accurate with slugs; smoothbore barrels, it usually depends. At the time, sights normally fitted on defense rifles would likely have mostly been open iron sights, and those vary for efficacy... and eyeball age can matter, too.

Minute of brown bear isn't a difficult target. Minute of brown bear approaching at 30 mph could be much more difficult... but even then, pinpoint accuracy at defensive ranges is usually not a high ranking criterion.

I digress: I have read there are more attacks by black bears i-- with more damaging results -- n the Lower 48 than there are attacks by brown (and grizzly) bears anywhere.

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Old 06-29-2015, 04:14 PM   #88
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What I have seen in my own personal experience is that brown / grizzly bears want nothing to do with you.

The ones I've seen all appeared to quickly leave the county once they spotted me. The last one I saw was a couple of weeks ago now.

If you suprise one, thats of course another story.

Not so with Black bears. They are like curious dogs. They want to see what you are up to. They from my experience are not generally afraid of humans like a grizzly/brown bear.

Just a FYI, there has been allot of interest and popularity in the old 45-70 here in Alaska for bear defense. There is a custom gunsmith Wild West Guns that specializes in the Marlin 45-70 and does things like muzzle brakes, larger loop lever (like the rifleman), special sights, etc...

While the 12 gauge is still popular, there are other choices out there, that are extremely effective, and in use in bear country.

Bear defense weapons, like anchors, brings our allot of unsubstantiated passionate opinions based on ones personal experiences, not necessarily the underlying facts.

Thats why we see so much debate. Its easy to debate something you cannot prove either way. Then it generally comes down to the person with the best writing skills being declared or proclaming themselves "right".

But there is no real right or wrong, again just like anchors. One product is not inferior and the other great. Its more like several products that can get the job done perfectly well.

When I step off the skiff like I do hundreds of times a year in bear country, I'll have my marlin, but I could just as easily have another weapon, including my 12 gauge pump. That won't make me wrong regardless of opinions on TF.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:22 PM   #89
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For personal protection...a gun is only one layer of the protective onion shell....make sure you work on all the others too.



Exactly what I alluded to many many posts ago. Situational awareness is more important than gauge or caliber for both bipeds and bruins
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:46 PM   #90
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Is it any harder to hit a charging bear with a rifle than a shotgun loaded with slugs?
It shouldn't be. But compared to the rifle bullet, the slug is much larger in diameter and at very close range has more impact stopping power.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:55 PM   #91
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My understanding is that Eskimos favored the 22 Hornet, a small center-fire round designed for varmints, not the 22 rimfire cartridge which is considerably less powerful. The Hornet was used in some WWII survival kits.
In the book I read this in, a history of the Eskimo but I can't tell you what book, the caliber was .22LR. This was a long, long time ago and I'm sure the Eskimos graduated to more effective firearms as they became available or affordable or whatever. I simply mentioned this as an illustration of the fact that you don't need the latest designer guns to kill things, even big things.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:19 PM   #92
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....brings our allot of unsubstantiated passionate opinions based on ones personal experiences, not necessarily the underlying facts
I love this, to me, ignorant position I see expressed all the time that personal experiences should not be considered to be fact.

To me, there is no more valid fact than personal experience. Everything else, like most of the stuff in this thread, is simply opinion and theory.

When we went shopping for an anchor to replace our POS Bruce, sure, we read what all the manufacturers had to say. We also read "analyses" of different anchors by so-called experts in on-line articles and reviews. In the same way as most people on forums like this, they presented all sorts of reasons (aka theories) as to why such and such an anchor would behave in some way based on their analysis of the design. Not by actually using it-- most of this kind of stuff is written by people who have probably never even seen the physical product let alone used it-- but based solely on their interpretation of the design and how they visualize it will interact with the bottom.

Okay, some of that can be useful and can provide things to think about.

But the thing we based our final decision on was not any of this stuff but the testimonials and personal experiences of people who had been using the actual products under actual conditions. That, to us, represented the facts about the various products. We made our decision based on these personal experiences and have never once had reason to think we might have made the wrong one.

All the rest of it, the speculation, the theories, the opinions based on guesses is just so much worthless fluff as far as I'm concerned and has zero credibility until proved otherwise by credible, actual, personal experiences by credible people.

Which is why my advice to newbies to this forum is NEVER, EVER act on anything they read here without checking it with a truly credible source in person.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:45 PM   #93
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I guess now I am going to have to ask Amazon if I can have the phone number for everyone who has reviewed a product that I am considering purchasing. The airfare to see them in person may be a deal killer.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:49 PM   #94
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My understanding of the Eskimos using small caliber and shooting to kill without damaging the coat was the goal.


That was straight from the locals mouth on St Lawrence Island guarding the Bering Strait
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:23 PM   #95
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Subscribed. 5 pages in 2 days! Brown bears? LOL!
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:53 PM   #96
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12 point sockets are inferior to six-point sockets. The only socket that should be allowed to be used as a six-point socket.

I know this is a fact because it is my personal experience. No, I've never had a 12 point socket fail but I know from personal experience and the fact is the 12 point sockets are inferior.

You see, once back in the 1970s my brothers cousins uncle worked as a salesman for snap on. He is an expert in sockets and told me that 12 Point sockets are no good and should never be used.

His advice, and the fact that I removed two bolts with six-point sockets prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 12 point sockets are in fact inferior.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:55 PM   #97
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12 point sockets are inferior to six-point sockets. The only socket that should be allowed to be used as a six-point socket.

I know this is a fact because it is my personal experience. No, I've never had a 12 point socket fail but I know from personal experience and the fact is the 12 point sockets are inferior.

You see, once back in the 1970s my brothers cousins uncle worked as a salesman for snap on. He is an expert in sockets told me that 12 Point sockets are no good and should never be used.

His advice, and the fact that I removed two bolts with six-point sockets prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 12 point socket are in fact inferior.
I hope you aren't suggesting that there are loose nuts on TF!!!!!
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:13 PM   #98
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I think that's already been demonstrated!
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:16 PM   #99
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WOW! This post has gone wild! I never mentioned Bears, because I never even seen a bear in my whole life. I was born in Brooklyn and raised on Long Island. I'm pretty much a city boy. I was worried about a "home invasion" type of thing. Maybe I don't have to worry? I've been to City Island by boat. That's within walking distance of a pretty crappy neighborhood in the Bronx. I never had a problem. I think I will not bother getting a gun. Thanx for all these answers.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:26 PM   #100
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Probly shouldnt use an impact wrench with 12 point sockets. I still do sometimes, doesnt make it right but it works. Usually. I think we can make 6 pages, especially if the pi$$in contest between Marin and Ksanders keeps up .
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