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Old 06-29-2015, 03:01 AM   #61
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Probably the best defense is loudly activating the slide on a pump shotgun! Who needs ammo, unless it is a bear!
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:17 AM   #62
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Marin

Just because you have been involved in a bear shooting or two does not make you an expert on the subject.
That's hilarious. You, who have apparenty NEVER been charged by a brown and put into a split second decision situation, ARE an expert?

That's like telling a fellow whose been shot that, since he's only been shot once, he's not an "expert" at being shot.

When you have been in a survival situation like this and managed to live through it, then you can come tell me what it was like and what an expert you are. Until then, I'm really not interested in your theories.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:44 AM   #63
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I am planning a trip. I want to spend about 1 year on my boat on the east coast. I prefer anchoring out and I am sure to be in some isolated areas at times. I was considering one of those marine grade shot guns for protection. They are st. st. and they come in a waterproof tube. Are there any legal issues I would need to be aware of? I know in NYC, you can't have a gun at all. But, I'm not going to NYC. I will be on the ICW from NJ to Fl. Does anyone else have a weapon on board?
This is the Original Post of the thread. He doesn`t seem vitally concerned about bears, doesn`t even mention them. Maybe he should be bear aware, I can`t say, but it is not the focus of his post. Unless there is more to answer him, we are drifting onto rocks.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:50 AM   #64
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We carry a Winchester Mariner 12 ga made of stainless steel. In desolate anchorages I might keep a few rounds in it but most times it is unloaded. I hope and doubt I will ever need it but it makes me feel a bit more secure.

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Old 06-29-2015, 05:54 AM   #65
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Largest Black Bear ever killed in Georgia was within a mile of my house. 352# and taken with a F-350 Power Stroke while it was crossing the road in the early a.m. Truck was a total loss.

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Old 06-29-2015, 07:37 AM   #66
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Well I guess which Alaska F&G guys you talk to will tell you a different story.

The F&W guys used to laugh at our 12 Ga's we carried in the Arctic for survival....they all had a variety of high power rifles.
They told us a 12 Ga may stop a bear with repeated hits, but were convinced a rifle for bears was the better choice . They did tell us to alternate slugs and shot and alternately soot for the face with shot and houlder with slug...the shot to blinds and get enough blood in their nostrils to prevent them from smelling us...and the slugs "may" break a bone in/near the shoulder which would slow them down and give you options.


I am with the article writer on this one, better to have a weapon matched for the target meaning one you can shoot, hit and the load is matched.


Overall a shotgun is a good survival weapon...but they call them big game rifles...not big game shotguns.

And to qualify for the pissing match I have confronted black, brown and white bears in my travels. Fortunately my survival training allowed me to skirt them versus have them charge...although I should have shot a few for stealing my salmon.
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:11 AM   #67
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A friend bought a Marlin 45-70 back in the 1970s. We considered one for bear protection when we started flying floats into SE Alaska and BC in the 1980s. We talked to acquaintances in the Fish and Game Dept. Their reaction was to laugh and say we'd be better off throwing a rock. Their recommendation was for what they'd learned worked best and that was a 12 gauge pump shotgun with an extended capacity magazine. Load alternately with slugs and 00 buck and start shooting when the bear is about 30 feet away and don't stop until the gun is empty. And never aim for the head.. Only the 12 gauge has the massive impact force at close range to actually stop the bear's inertia, they said. I've had to do it with the gun pictures and it works as advertised. The F&G guys use the same type of firearm but they are fitted with pistol grip stocks instead of full stocks. This makes the gun illegal in Canada, however.

Back in the early '80s, approx. '83 IIRC, Alaska Fish & Game did a penetration study of various firearms/cartridges available at the time. Purpose was to determine minimum recommended armament for their field folks, and especially in light of their current (at the time) hiring of new/young people often with little firearms knowledge or practice, ans also considered slighter stature as a possibility with new some female employees.

The study results were published in Rifle Magazine.

The test was focused on penetration, and only included factory loads. The .458 Win Mag came first, .460 Wby Mag second, .375 H&H Mag third, and the .45-70 was about 4th in the findings. (This from memory; don't have the article here on board, but do have it somewhere or other...).

This was with factory .45-70 loads of that era, and that pre-dates newer modern factory offerings with upgraded ballistics.

The 12-gauge shotgun was also respectable, with some caveat, I think. (Might have been about "only with slugs" or some such; can't exactly remember that part.)

I think their cut-off recommendation was "nothing less than a .338 Win Mag" (or equivalent, probably, since there's also a .340 Wby Mag).

In some cases, cartridges didn't do as well because bullets of that era could break up before achieving the minimum required penetration.

No handguns were recommended, although the .44 Rem Mag was acknowledged to be useful if employee left his rifle over there somewhere leaning up against a tree. (The .454 Casull wasn't tested, IIRC, might not have existed in mainstream at the time.)

Wouldn't surprise me if those results have been updated, given the flock of newer cartridges -- and especially factory loading -- introduced since then, but I haven't seen an update.

-Chris
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:13 AM   #68
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Hated to ruin the idiocy of my last post...just couldn't help myself..it is TF and a gun thread.


For the OP...


Yep...doesn't matter what federal law states...it's whatever the LEO stopping you thinks. Sure in the end you win...but the hassle is rarely worth it all.


Most experienced cruisers all eventually concede that it comes down to personal comfort of having the weapon with you or not. The probability of needing it is less than the stuffed teddy bear on your bed for comfort during some tough times afloat not involving intruders.


I agree with the personal protection types...but am pretty comfy with not having a weapon on board for personal protection.


The similarity with the bear concept....is if you do need it...it better be matched for you and the target more than what it is (a tiny 22 will do the trick in many close range situations)....


My main disagreement with things like sprays, etc....my philosophy and training is if you point the gun....usually it is immediately followed by a well placed shot. End of old problem...but in most places today...beginning of a whole new nightmare.


Spraying someone with something less than buckshot could just intensify the immediate nightmare.


And like the bear concept...better to be aware of your surroundings/situation and skirt the danger rather than need to confront it. Not always possible...but the numbers are clearly on your side.
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:15 AM   #69
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Mark, as a fan of TV westerns, did you ever notice that the cartridges McQueen had in his belt looked too long for the gun? They must have been three inches long and the Mares Leg gun couldn't have held more that about three of them in the magazine. I once counted at least six shots without him reloading.
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Thanks Ray! That it. See how long the cartridges are? The Henry reproduction is chambered for pistol rounds.
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Steve's truncated firearm would at the most hold three rile rounds as shown on his belt. More realistic would be pistol rounds, most often used on the early lever actions, justifying his volume of fire. (Edit: Hopcar you beat me to it.)

The "rifle" was a Winchester Model 92 clone chambered for .44 WCF (aka .44-40), firing 5-in-1 blanks. (Can't remember if they used a real Winchester or one of the South American clones.)

The cartridges in the belt were .45-70s. It was a Hollywood thing.

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Old 06-29-2015, 08:45 AM   #70
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A 12 gauge shotgun is more versatile. It can be had specifically for boat purposes and has been designed as such. One of the major downfalls of using a rifle for self defense is collateral damage. They just shoot to far. The shotgun is good to about 30 yards. Its hard to miss with a shotgun at the close range its normally used at. Not so much with a rifle. I'm not and expert on bears, having only had one situation where I had to "shoot" a brown bear on Kodiac. The flare pistol did a stellar job. Bears make a lot of noise when you set them on fire. I'm glad it worked, but honestly he was only interested in eating my fish, not me. I would have let him have the fish but they were between me and him and my only escape route was straight up or swim. I figured he could outclimb or outswim me. The flare gun worked, but I wouldnt want to rely on it to often. Although, its very legal and very effective for close encounters like you may have on a boat. And, if you shoot an intruder with a flare at night he makes a more visible target as he runs away. You could then shoot at him with your 45/70
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:32 AM   #71
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And, if you shoot an intruder with a flare at night he makes a more visible target as he runs away. You could then shoot at him with your 45/70
Also known as a screaming class A fire.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:49 AM   #72
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The "rifle" was a Winchester Model 92 clone chambered for .44 WCF (aka .44-40), firing 5-in-1 blanks. (Can't remember if they used a real Winchester or one of the South American clones.)

The cartridges in the belt were .45-70s. It was a Hollywood thing.

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Old 06-29-2015, 10:00 AM   #73
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Yep...doesn't matter what federal law states...it's whatever the LEO stopping you thinks. Sure in the end you win...but the hassle is rarely worth it all.

Most experienced cruisers all eventually concede that it comes down to personal comfort of having the weapon with you or not. The probability of needing it is less than the stuffed teddy bear on your bed for comfort during some tough times afloat not involving intruders.

I agree with the personal protection types...but am pretty comfy with not having a weapon on board for personal protection.
This is pretty much how I feel also. I've been cruising 25 years and never felt I really needed a gun although I have carried a .380 aboard for a few years. I also have a carry permit but never carry. Maybe I'm the oddball but I've never really felt threatened enough to bother.

My only encounter with a bear (black) was in my backyard in suburbia. I lobbed a snowball in it's direction from 40 feet just to see what it would do. He/she just laughed and went on to rob someone else's bird feeder.
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:11 AM   #74
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A perfectly legal spray can of wasp repellent will shoot 30', blind whoever you hit (at least for 15 minutes)...
No, it won't. This is an urban legend with no truth to it. I have no idea how it got started, but it is an extraordinarily wide-spread belief, even though it is completely untrue.

How do I know? Because I was once accidentally shot in the face with wasp spray. It was unpleasant, and my doctor told me that it was a good thing that I quickly washed my face and my eyes with copious amounts of water, as the long-term effects could be rather serious had I not done that, but it did not blind me, nor in any way incapacitate me. Were I intent on attacking someone, it would not have slowed me down in the least.

Please do not believe this, and even more, please do not rely on wasp spray for self defense. It will not work!
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:25 AM   #75
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"And, if you shoot an intruder with a flare at night he makes a more visible target as he runs away. You could then shoot at him with your 45/70 "



On one hunting forum I subscribed to had a thread concerning the best pistol round for bear defense while bowhunting. The winning response, at least IMO, was: I never hunt alone and carry a .22LR. After I shoot my hunting buddy in the knee cap I only have to outrun him!

Course correction....

We have always carried a nickel plated .357 S&W revolver, 6" barrel loaded with .38 spl for shooting big cobia before gaffing them. Have not lost the hinges on a fish-box or a rod tip since. For self defense we carried a Mossburg Model 12 knockoff that was nickel plated (or SS..not sure) with 00 buckshot. every year one of us would discharge the weapon in a safe area and then clean and put in fresh rounds. The brass would corrode to the point of the round seizing if not replaced periodically.
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:18 AM   #76
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Personally, I use a 30kg Delta clone which I drop on an intruder's foot. I tried doing that with a CQR but the hinge makes it harder to hit the target without collateral damage.
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:27 PM   #77
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Personally, I use a 30kg Delta clone which I drop on an intruder's foot. I tried doing that with a CQR but the hinge makes it harder to hit the target without collateral damage.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:02 PM   #78
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You are telling me and the rest of the world that your method is the ONLY method that works.
As usual and like most of the people on forums like this you're reacting to what you think someone wrote, not what the person actually did write.

Eskimos used to hunt polar bears with .22s and it worked if they hit the bear in the right place. You can probably kill a big charging animal with one of Monty Python's pointed sticks if you get lucky.

I'm saying that in a survival situation the 12-gauge is the best option, in part because it has more stopping impact-- not penetration or range or velocity, none of which are as important in a very close range situation-- than a rifle. A charging animal, be it a squirrel or a bear or a whale, is a very different creature than that same animal walking or swimming around doing its own thing until a hunter shoots it.

Is a 12-gauge the only option? Of course not. But in my opinion, which has subsequently been reinforced by my actual experience, the 12-gauge is more effective and is more likely to be successful under the specific circumstances I have been writing about, than any other firearm. And these circumstances include a person-- myself in this case-- who is not a professional hunter or someone who works around bears as a matter of course, but is just your average back country camper/hiker/fisherman who suddenly finds himself in a critical situation with an animal.

Many years ago in McKinley National Park I and a friend-- the fellow with the Marlin .45-70 I mentioned earlier-- took a course of sorts on how to "get along" with the bears in the park. The object was not how to kill them but how to avoid them. So I know all the "rules" about what kind of areas to avoid, how to use noise to announce your presence, what sorts of things to do when you come across one, and so forth. In my subsequent experience flying in the Coast Range and camping in often very close proximity to bears, black and brown, 99.999 percent of the time the avoidance actions and techniques work as advertised.

But 99.999 percent is not 100 percent. Bears (and plenty of other creatures) are very cunning, determined animals when they want to be, so there can be times when all the avoidance knowledge and deterrent actions simply don't work, and it all comes down to a sudden and very close range confrontation. In this respect, it's not unlike what can happen with people. I suspect it is this situation the original poster is concerned about.

So when this happens, a person needs every advantage they can get. It is here where in the case of an animal attack the shotgun, effectively loaded, provides a much higher probability of a successful defense for the reasons I've stated than a rifle and certainly than a handgun.

In the course of putting together the survival kit we carry in the plane I asked people we knew and sought out who, like the F&G folks, had a lot of experience in the bush, about the advisability of using a handgun as the required firearm. I have one and with weight and space always an important consideration in a plane I thought it might be a good solution. My notion was quickly quashed by the experts. Not only a poor choice for a survival situation--- unless one is a hell of a good shot, shooting small game or birds with a handgun in rough country and perhaps with physical issues as a result of the crash or forced landing is an iffy proposition-- but in animal defense even the most powerful handgun, at the time the .44 magnum, was a very poor choice. Except, they said, in one specific situation.

If, as the bear bites down on you, you can reach up and jam the handgun into its mouth in such a way to prevent it from closing its jaws, it could work.

They were joking, of course. But they also weren't joking......

In the end we chose the shotgun that we still have and carry and this choice has proven to be the best one in actual experience.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:10 PM   #79
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Personally, I use a 30kg Delta clone which I drop on an intruder's foot. I tried doing that with a CQR but the hinge makes it harder to hit the target without collateral damage.
And it goes without saying, a Fortress would be worthless, too light . . . . no knock-down power.

Sorry, I just had to go there
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:28 PM   #80
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