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Old 06-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #21
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Perhaps the east coast is different with gangs roaming the marinas and anchorages in search of easy targets, I don't know. I've met a lot of guys with carry permits. All of them were very eager to tell me they had one and to show off their Glock or whatever and none of them had ever actually needed to use it.
Not an East Coast thing. Southern California has more than their share of bad people. Probably not a problem where you cruise as most bad people prefer temperat climates and victims that come to there general neighborhood.

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Old 06-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #22
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A friend bought a Marlin 45-70 back in the 1970s. We considered one for bear protection when we started flying floats into SE Alaska and BC in the 1980s. We talked to acquaintances in the Fish and Game Dept. Their reaction was to laugh and say we'd be better off throwing a rock. Their recommendation was for what they'd learned worked best and that was a 12 gauge pump shotgun with an extended capacity magazine. Load alternately with slugs and 00 buck and start shooting when the bear is about 30 feet away and don't stop until the gun is empty. And never aim for the head.. Only the 12 gauge has the massive impact force at close range to actually stop the bear's inertia, they said. I've had to do it with the gun pictures and it works as advertised. The F&G guys use the same type of firearm but they are fitted with pistol grip stocks instead of full stocks. This makes the gun illegal in Canada, however.
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:37 PM   #23
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The challenge we have from a brown bear defense standpoint is penetration, and the ability to deliver mulptiple shots quickly.

Couple this with the need for a compact rifle and you find that a modern lever action rifle fills the bill almost perfectly.

The Marlin lever action 45-70 has become extremely popular in Alaska for just that reason, replacing for many the 12 gauge pump shotgun. There are ammo manufacturers that cater to this need and supply ammunition specifically designed for maximum penetration, and use against dangerous game.

The 12 gauge shotgun also has a following, but it suffers from an amunition problem. The typical large manufacturer 12 gauge slug is designed for use on white tail deer. This fills the need of the eastern US hunter because in some locations the use of rifles is discouraged.

The problem is that a 12 gauge slug designed for a 200 pound deer is not going to penetrate a 800 pound brown bear. If it does penetrate it will not stop the bear from eating you before it dies. While there might be specialty 12 gauge ammo producers out there I do not see this ammo in the stores in Alaska.

Marin you might reconsider your advise regarding starting shooting at the bear at 30' and unloading your gun on it. At 20 miles per hour charging speed the bear will cover 30' in almost exactly one second. I do not think I'll be waiting that long. My tecnnique is to not get myself in situations where I have limited visibility. We go to shore three to four times a day to potty the dogs and have encountered bears. The best technique is to pick places that give you enough visibility to avoid bear encounters.

In full disclosure I have never myself shot a brown bear and never want to. I have killed a black bear at less than 10' away but that bear at 150 lbs was a whole different animal than a brown bear at 800 lbs.

Mark, in terms of what seem like "old" cartriges still being popular that is the case with many very popular cartriges.

The 30-30 started out as a black powder round. 30 caliber, 30 grains of black powder

The 30-06 stands for 30 caliber 1906

The 45 ACP is derived from the 30-06 cut down and was madee popular by the colt model 1911, a gun actually invented by John Browning.
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:49 PM   #24
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Factory 45/70 rounds are all loaded to original maximum pressure ratings, on the off chance that someone will shoot them in an "original" firearm. Pistols were made in 45/70 back in the day when you didnt want to carry ammo for different guns. Same for 44/40. A 45/70 with factory ammo is woefully inadequate for a brown bear. In a modern rifle, built for it, they can be loaded up to be very effective, if you care to do your own reloading. However, you can get the 454 Kasull in pistol or rifle. It exceeds the 45/70 by far. All that being said,,, I shot a brown bear on Kodiac with a flare gun. Long story, but he made a lot of noise whilst running away !!!
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:58 PM   #25
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Just a FYI regarding ballistics and ammo.

ALL factory 45-70 ammo IS NOT loaded to original factory specifiications and pressures.

45-70 ammo built for modern rifles has a huge disclaimer on it and warning not to shoot it in a antique design rifle.

Also looking at factory ammo ballistic tables....

Federal 12 gauge slug, 1650 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

Buffalo Bore 454 Casull 1813 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

Bufflao Bore 45-70, 3597 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:03 PM   #26
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My experience is the same as Steve's and my boat gun looks just like Marin's.
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:15 PM   #27
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You are correct, +p is much different. However, I dissagree about the rapid fire ability of a lever gun. A pump is faster. I shoot a winchester custom shop 410 lever action model 94 when quail hunting. I shot a 20 gauge pump (winchester 1200?) until it was to worn out to fix. I have on occasion taken 5 on a covey rise with the lever gun, but rarely. I did it regularly with the pump. 3 was easy. I'm no expert, but I normally shoot about 3 cases of 410 a season, and maybe 2 cases of 20 gauge in a Franchi AL48. A case of 12 gauge will last about 2 seasons (pheasant mostly). I bird hunt a bit
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:18 PM   #28
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A perfectly legal spray can of wasp repellent will shoot 30', blind whoever you hit (at least for 15 minutes) and you cannot be arrested for defending yourself with insect repellent. Bear spray, as I understand it, is actually a fog and will hit you the same as who you spray it at. Once they're screaming in pain a fish billy will quiet them down.
Pepper spray can be a fog, stream or something in between, it depends on the design of the product.

A fogged spray makes it easier to hit a target but you have to be close. Spray allows a bit of distance but you still are pretty close in the grand scheme of things. Wind direction and strength is critical for both, but more so, with a fog spray. In any case, using the spray in a confined space like a boat means everyone is going to get affected at some level.

I believe Bear spray is a stream since they want to keep the bear at a greater distance than pepper spray for people which will be used at a closer distance.

I would not bet that you can't be arrested for using wasp spray. It can be considered a weapon and there are plenty of laws that could be applied. Furthermore, if wasp spray caused permanent injury to someone one, even in a defensive situation, a civil lawsuit could result. It will depend on state law.

I THOUGHT that pepper and tear spray was illegal in NY state and likely NY city.

As far as I know, axes are legal in all states and every boat should have an axe on board as fire fighting equipment.

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Old 06-28-2015, 03:37 PM   #29
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Wow! There seems to be enough misinformation in this thread to get you either arrested or killed. If not both.
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:38 PM   #30
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You are correct, +p is much different. However, I dissagree about the rapid fire ability of a lever gun. A pump is faster. (
No disagreement a pump is faster than a lever gun.

Actually a pretty good bear defense gun is a browning semi auto in 338 win magnum.

The only reason I don't still own mine is it was too heavy so I tended not to carry it.

What I found for skiff use is that the 45-70 stainless model provides the firepower, the speed, the handling, and the rust resistance to make it the best (for me) compromise.
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Old 06-28-2015, 04:19 PM   #31
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I don't know much about guns and would rather keep it that way.

My first reaction to this thread is to say if one thinks they need a gun for protection while recreating on their pleasure boat (and usually having women and kids aboard) is that they find other kind of recreation, or move or both.

To be bear smart is the best way to get around the bear problem. I've spent time in Angoon where brown bears wander around around town and I don't remember of anyone being killed. The last time we were in Angoon arriving w our boat we saw a big brownie walking on the beach just below the store probably headed for the dumpster. We were headed for dad's house about 3/4 of a mile from the small boat harbor and we opted to go by dinghy and not the road.

As for guns for the bad guys I think it's mostly a gun mentality. We got there watching John Wayne, war movies ect. But as to the bear spray in confined spaces one previous poster has a point. Perhaps I should get a 32 pistol for the bedroom. With my bear spray I've really got to take him down as I've got to step over him in a hurry to get out through the door and away from the spray.

To you knowledgeable fighters what's the chances of killing someone w bear spray?
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Old 06-28-2015, 04:36 PM   #32
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Well, no matter what anyone thinks I always carry on my person and onboard. While I have carried for the last 24 years I have never had the need to pull my weapon. If it happens I don't want to lose my life or not be able to defend my family because I haven't needed it prior to that.
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:33 PM   #33
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Regarding stopping a charging bear penetration is exactly what you don't want. Because a shot that would kill a bear if it was just walking around likely won't phase it at all if it's charging and all hopped up on adrenalin. It will die eventually but a dying bear on top of you will still take you apart before it expires.

If one has to stop a charging bear what is needed is tremendous shock energy that will physically overcome the bear's inertia. A rifle bullet will not do this because it's simply too small. A 12-gauge slug at very close range will. The only thing that would be better is a 10-gauge but they don't make those much or at all and so far as I know they don't make extremely powerful slug ammunition for them.

Unfortunately I've had to stop a charging brown and the advice we were given by the Fish & Game folks we talked to way back when was right on the money. The 12-gauge physically stopped the bear before it got to us and disabled it to the point where it could not move toward us anymore even though it was still trying.

After these experiences I would never rely on a rifle of any caliber to stop a charging bear. These encounters are always at very close range because there is always the hope that the bear will stop the charge and leave.

This is not hunting, this is purely protection. Our number one objective is to give both the bear and us every chance to survive. They are magnificent animals and we have zero desire to deprive one of its life. We do not believe in hunting bears. We had a brown break off a charge and dash off a split second before I was going to pull the trigger. So if an encounter does come down to a bear-or-us situation it is always at extremely close range because we wait to the very last possible second. At that point the requirement becomes simply to physically stop the bear. In this situation, a rifle is all but worthless, to say nothing of a handgun.

I suspect this is a situation the original poster will not have to worry about too much cruising the east coast.

PS-- Another tip from the Fish & Game folks: the best bear protection is not a firearm of any kind. It's the cheap, handheld compressed gas boat horns you can buy at places like West Marine. We carry and use these all the time when we're in bear country.
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:56 PM   #34
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Marin said:

"I suspect this is a situation the original poster will not have to worry about too much cruising the east coast."

Au Contraire, Marin. Florida has too many little Black Bears getting in people's pools and on their lanais so our state officials are now going to have a Bear Season with area quotas. Naples is especially threatened so it will get the Bear's share of the permits.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:39 PM   #35
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We've needed it for bears, never needed it for a hoody-cladded bad guy sneaking onto our boat bent on burglary and bodily harm.

Not surprising, you would find them exactly where in Alaska?

The east coast of the US is a differiant country as you AK folks like to oh so often tell us.

We have bears, wolves and snakes also just the two leg version.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:43 PM   #36
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12 gauge shotgun is good, pistol grip is not, do not have one unless you want to really train with one.

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Old 06-28-2015, 06:50 PM   #37
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Marin do some research, if the energy at the projectile is enough to change the course or the bear in ft. lbs then YOU eat the same amount in the shoulder, unless you are firing rocket propelled ammo there is no more energy at one then the other, see Newton.

You must have penetration to disconnect the central nervous system from the brain to stop the bears attack you will NOT change his inertia or energy with any weapon that a human is capable of shoulder firing, short of an anti-tank rocket.


Not even open for rational discussion, period.




Dynamic Energy in Physics
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:30 PM   #38
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To you knowledgeable fighters what's the chances of killing someone w bear spray?

0.0%


But it's more important that you be as comfortable with your survival requirements as I be with mine even if they differ.

Have a great day, I will as well, regardless of our survival instinct differences.

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Old 06-28-2015, 07:36 PM   #39
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And here we go again! Your gun is too small, it's the wrong kind and you don't have enough ammunition.

My boat gun of choice would be a Holland and Holland .500 double rifle. It was good enough for Teddy to kill elephants and rhinos, it's good enough to kill hoods in hoodies and big bears
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:59 PM   #40
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Marin do some research, if the energy at the projectile is enough to change the course or the bear in ft. lbs then YOU eat the same amount in the shoulder, unless you are firing rocket propelled ammo there is no more energy at one then the other, see Newton.

You must have penetration to disconnect the central nervous system from the brain to stop the bears attack you will NOT change his inertia or energy with any weapon that a human is capable of shoulder firing, short of an anti-tank rocket.


Not even open for rational discussion, period.




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Exactly!!!

The concept of deep penetration of dangerous game is tried and proven.

The 12 gauge is a formadible weapon, and the argument of it vs a rifle are ongoing, but not for the reasons Marin expressed.

If I were going to have ONE weapon onboard against human targets it wouldn't be a shotgun or a lever gun.

It would be an AR-10 in .308 caliber with a trijicon ACOG site. That has the penetration and range to ward off real pirates, yet is good enough at close range to be effective.
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