shore power cord problems

[tinped]

And I agree with Bacchus.

 

[sdowney717]

sorry,needed to check codebook on this one.According to the nec,not abyc,and I quote from 400-8 as to uses not permitted,Flexible cords are not to be used as a substitute for fixed wiring of a structure.Attaching it permanently to the boat creates a fixed wiring situation.There are also addendums as to protection,and supports needed.The cablemasters complies with these nec codes by creating a retractible system that is independently hooked up by the cablemaster,while also complying with the protection issued by reeling the wire up when not in use.In other words,the other end of the shore power cable from the glennmaster is attached to the glennmaster,by approved methods,then the cablemaster connects to the power source.The shore power cable does not go directly to the boat buss.Hope that helps.

I suppose a structure is not a boat. And a boat is not a structure.
All boats must have flexible multi stranded cord type wire connecting all electrical devices.
No solid copper wire like a structure has.

 

[tinped]

Boat cable is not shore power cable.Again,I can only quote the nec,the abyc specs for definitions could be completly different.but not to the definition of boat cable,just the structure issue.The definition for flexible cords is not the same as cable.

look the same?

 

[rwidman]

I have a question (in an attempt to get us back on track)...

Would it make sense to have both connectors on the boat side? You know, in case you DO drop one overboard or something. I don't imagine it would be safe to just parallel the plugs because when one was energized, the pins of the other would be passing current, but I don't see it and an extremely difficult problem to solve. Have a smart plug as primary, but maintain the old Hubble connector.

But you know... As I sit here and type this, I suppose a pigtail from SmartPlug to twist would be safer, easier, and cheaper to do sould something horrible happen to your primary and you need to borrow or buy one in a rush.

Nevermind.

Two inlets without a switch to allow only one to be used at a time would create a situation where the pins of the inlet not in use would be "hot" and that's a dangerous situation indeed.

A pigtail adapter might be the best compromise.

I mentioned before that you cannot connect two smart plug cables together to make a longer cable. Some may not see this as a disadvantage but I had to do just that not long ago.

I just wonder why Bayliner, Sea Ray and the other manufacturers aren't including the smart plug system on new boats.

 

[tinped]

Exactly Wes,thats why two means of disconnect would be required.You cant bi-feed a busbar from two separate power sources legally.Anyone who has a genny(boat or home)has a transfer switch,thus allowing only one power source at a time,while locking out the other.

 

[tinped]

If the separate feeds were in phase(possible,but not practical)then double the amperage would be available,but the fusing is there to protect the wire size,which is not rated for double the amperage,but worse than that ,if the feeds are out of phase,then don your sunglasses,cause you gonna see some pretty big fireworks.

 

[rwidman]

Exactly Wes,thats why two means of disconnect would be required.You cant bi-feed a busbar from two separate power sources legally.Anyone who has a genny(boat or home)has a transfer switch,thus allowing only one power source at a time,while locking out the other.

One would hope.

My FIL (RIP) was a farmer and rough carpenter by trade. He lived out in the country a bit and suffered frequent power failures. Like many folks would do, he bought a portable generator but instead of running a cable indoors and plugging refrigerators and the like into an outlet strip or having it installed with a transfer switch, he ran a cord from a shed to the basement and put an electric dryer plug on the end. The other end of his cord had a plug to fit the generator.

Whenever there was a power outage, he unplugged the dryer, plugged in his cord, turned off the main breaker and went out and started the generator. This "backfed" the entire house.

No amount of my scolding ever convinced him that he shouldn't be doing this.

 

[Bruce B]

...I urge everyone to look over the Compass Marine article & photos and make your own decision - for what ever reasons you like....

I referenced this article on the very first page of this thread (post #4).
Just pointing this out because I am feeling left out this late in the thread...

It is an interesting article though and yes, we have specified that our new boat be equipped with Smartplugs. I'm not worried about finding a replacement as I will simply have a spare aboard!

I'm not sure why Tomco doesn't supply the boat with a 50 amp cord. I do know that they split air conditioning from everything else and give it its own cord... Is a single 50 amp cord and receptical more expensive than a pair of 30's?

I will ask about all of this and report back!

Bruce

 

[tinped]

Seen this happen at a home,when the power system was restored,the transformer was being backfed,blew it right off the pole,when they bucked.Not popular with the neighbors as they were in a power outage situation again,and I believe the municipality,in conjunjunction with the power authority imposed a ten thousand dollar fine,for damages,and unlicensed work.Ouch!! I was contracted to do the correct job.Just about everything was fried.

 

[tinped]

I referenced this article on the very first page of this thread (post #4).
Just pointing this out because I am feeling left out this late in the thread...

It is an interesting article though and yes, we have specified that our new boat be equipped with Smartplugs. I'm not worried about finding a replacement as I will simply have a spare aboard!

I'm not sure why Tomco doesn't supply the boat with a 50 amp cord. I do know that they split air conditioning from everything else and give it its own cord... Is a single 50 amp cord and receptical more expensive than a pair of 30's?

I will ask about all of this and report back!

Bruce

my best guess would be that not all boats get ac systems(west coast)so the electrical systems are designed separately.Most builders,ac is an option.

 

[FF]

"Is a single 50 amp cord and receptical more expensive than a pair of 30's?"

A single 120V 50A power cord is history not likely to be found on a dock.

PIA to use but the 240V 50A setup is probably the best bet , even if the boat can only draw 30a per leg.

 

[Bruce B]

"Is a single 50 amp cord and receptical more expensive than a pair of 30's?"

A single 120V 50A power cord is history not likely to be found on a dock.

PIA to use but the 240V 50A setup is probably the best bet , even if the boat can only draw 30a per leg.

Our dock pedestal is wired with a 30 amp receptical and a 50 amp receptical.
I have no idea what the 50 is all about as we have never had need to use it...
I guess that will change when we get the tug home sometime next year!
Now I'm curious...
Bruce

 

[tinped]

one fifty amp cord is about twice the price of two thirtys,same length.Go figure-what a rippoff.

 

[Tom.B]

Two inlets without a switch to allow only one to be used at a time would create a situation where the pins of the inlet not in use would be "hot" and that's a dangerous situation indeed.

Yea... I wasn';t clear... What I was implying is that adding a transfer switch of some kind would not be a hard problem to resolve so that you didn't have energized pins on the unused plug. sorry...

 

[tadhana]

Corrosion is not the big enemy of copper inhibiting its ability to conduct electricity,oxidation is,which boeshield makes no claim on.Think your water mains at your house,they are copper,and corrosion was the big enemy,copper would never have been used for that purpose,in fact,there ability to resist corrosion was why copper was chosen.Im not saying that copper doesn't corrode,but that it has a high resistance properties.From the boeshield website,they claim to inhibit corrosion,displace water,and lubricate.No mention of oxidation.Sounds very close to the claims of wd-40 to me.It may be superior to wd 40,no argument here with some additional capabilities over wd-40.I just feel that there are better alternatives.IMHO.

I am not a chemist, but I am pretty sure that oxidation is the most common form of copper corrosion. It is by definition the product of copper corrosion. In the presence of sea water I believe copper develops and oxide coating. The color of the coating varies with the chemistry of the copper alloy, the water and the amount of sulfur and oxygen available in the process. Pure cuprous oxide is red. The green patina a that we see on copper and bronze is the result of sulfur in the air and water and as the copper corrodes it often turns black first as result of lead in the alloy. The black color on copper wire is not carbon, it is merely the corrosion of the copper alloy itself.

The water lines in your house carry fresh water. Copper lines carrying salt water do corrode and have to be replaced from time to time.

 

[Bacchus]

I referenced this article on the very first page of this thread (post #4).
Just pointing this out because I am feeling left out this late in the

... I do know that they split air conditioning from everything else and give it its own cord...

Bruce

Bruce...
I thought your ref to the Compass article was worth repeating given the # of posts.

If you have 2 -30A cords/inlets consider having a panel w a transfer sw to connect both sides to one cord. Our Mainship is set up this way and I can run anything I choose w only one cord attached... I just have to manage load to keep it at 20-25 A when using one cord.
Some lications especially when traveling I may only have access to one 30A outlet.

I can provide more info if necessary and you are interested.

 

[tadhana]

sorry,needed to check codebook on this one.According to the nec,not abyc,and I quote from 400-8 as to uses not permitted,Flexible cords are not to be used as a substitute for fixed wiring of a structure.Attaching it permanently to the boat creates a fixed wiring situation.

When using standards and codes it is essential that you lok at the Purpose and scope The NEC is produced by the NFPA in is scope it specifically states "(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following: (1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles "

NFPA has a separate standard NFPA 303 for boatyards and marinas. I sat on this panel for a decade.
1.1 Scope. This standard applies to the construction and operation of marinas, boatyards, yacht clubs, boat condominiums, docking facilities associated with residential condominiums, multiple-docking facilities at multiple-family residences, and all associated piers, docks, and floats. 1.1.1 This standard also applies to support facilities and structures used for construction, repair, storage, hauling and launching, or fueling of vessels if fire on a pier would pose an immediate threat to these facilities, or if a fire at a referenced facility would pose an immediate threat to a docking facility. 1.1.2 This standard applies to marinas and facilities servicing small recreational and commercial craft, yachts, and other craft of not more than 300 gross tons. 1.1.3 This standard is not intended to apply to a private, noncommercial docking facility constructed or occupied for the use of the owners or residents of the associated single-family dwelling. 1.1.4 No requirement in this standard is to be construed as reducing applicable building, fire, and electrical codes.

Neither of these apply to recreational boats. ABYC and NFPA 302 standards apply to recreational boats.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce...
I thought your ref to the Compass article was worth repeating given the # of posts.

If you have 2 -30A cords/inlets consider having a panel w a transfer sw to connect both sides to one cord. Our Mainship is set up this way and I can run anything I choose w only one cord attached... I just have to manage load to keep it at 20-25 A when using one cord.
Some lications especially when traveling I may only have access to one 30A outlet.

I can provide more info if necessary and you are interested.

I think the tug may in fact be set up this way???
I remember being confused when looking at the AC breakers in the panel. I'd call and ask Kurt but I think I've asked enough questions for this week.
What I need to get is a schematic for the boat...
Next week!
Bruce

 

[tinped]

sorry,needed to check codebook on this one.According to the nec,not abyc,and I quote from 400-8 as to uses not permitted,Flexible cords are not to be used as a substitute for fixed wiring of a structure.Attaching it permanently to the boat creates a fixed wiring situation.

When using standards and codes it is essential that you lok at the Purpose and scope The NEC is produced by the NFPA in is scope it specifically states "(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following: (1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles "

NFPA has a separate standard NFPA 303 for boatyards and marinas. I sat on this panel for a decade.
1.1 Scope. This standard applies to the construction and operation of marinas, boatyards, yacht clubs, boat condominiums, docking facilities associated with residential condominiums, multiple-docking facilities at multiple-family residences, and all associated piers, docks, and floats. 1.1.1 This standard also applies to support facilities and structures used for construction, repair, storage, hauling and launching, or fueling of vessels if fire on a pier would pose an immediate threat to these facilities, or if a fire at a referenced facility would pose an immediate threat to a docking facility. 1.1.2 This standard applies to marinas and facilities servicing small recreational and commercial craft, yachts, and other craft of not more than 300 gross tons. 1.1.3 This standard is not intended to apply to a private, noncommercial docking facility constructed or occupied for the use of the owners or residents of the associated single-family dwelling. 1.1.4 No requirement in this standard is to be construed as reducing applicable building, fire, and electrical codes.

Neither of these apply to recreational boats. ABYC and NFPA 302 standards apply to recreational boats.

glad you chimed in,as that was my request that someone more familiar with abyc than I am.thanks

 

[tinped]

I am not a chemist, but I am pretty sure that oxidation is the most common form of copper corrosion. It is by definition the product of copper corrosion. In the presence of sea water I believe copper develops and oxide coating. The color of the coating varies with the chemistry of the copper alloy, the water and the amount of sulfur and oxygen available in the process. Pure cuprous oxide is red. The green patina a that we see on copper and bronze is the result of sulfur in the air and water and as the copper corrodes it often turns black first as result of lead in the alloy. The black color on copper wire is not carbon, it is merely the corrosion of the copper alloy itself.

The water lines in your house carry fresh water. Copper lines carrying salt water do corrode and have to be replaced from time to time.

al

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_wire_comparison.JPG
Unoxidized copper wire (left) and oxidized copper wire (right).​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal_Observatory_Edinburgh_East_Tower_2010_cropped.jpg
The East Tower of the Royal Observatory, Edinburgh. The contrast between the refurbished copper installed in 2010 and the green color of the original 1894 copper is clearly seen.​

Copper does not react with water but it does slowly react with atmospheric oxygen to form a layer of brown-black copper oxide which, unlike the rust that forms on iron in moist air, protects the underlying metal from further corrosion (passivation). A green layer of verdigris(copper carbonate) can often be seen on old copper structures, such as the roofing of many older buildings[13] and the Statue of Liberty.[14] Copper tarnishes when exposed to some sulfur compounds, with which it reacts to form various copper sulfides.[15]
You are correct that oxidation is a form of corrosion,one of many.When I went to trade school,the focus was always on oxidation,and ways to mitigate.Oxidation is the main problem electrically related,as other forms of corrosion,such as galvanic,is not overly prevelant in my trade.Right or wrong,the electrical industry seems to separate the two.copper will suffer from oxidation,regardless of the environment,as it attempts to return to its natural state.The marine environment just complicates it. Thanks

 

[tinped]

tadhana,as to marinas,they do fall under the scope of the Nec.Article 555-1,and 2.To be brief,and I quote-this article covers the installation of wiring and equipment in the areas comprised of fixed or floating piers,wharfs,docks and other areas in marinas,etc. Part two reads wiring and equipment in marinas shall comply with this article,and also with the applicable provisions of other articles of this code.Basically,everything at the marina,including fuel,except the boats,which is then becomes abyc compliant . The only reason I stated prior about the fixed wiring issue is that abyc doesn't write the original text to there standards,they use the nec codes as there starting point.They tweak some of them to be more applicable to the marine,and boating needs,thats why they are called standards,not codes(so I was told)Do they have a different interpretation,maybe,but I put that disclaimer in there,about myself,and for others to seek further clarification.The abyc standards that I know(not many)were taken verbatim form the nec,no changes.

 

[psneeld]

Thankfully boats don't strictly follow land based regs....apples and oranges.

Hardwiring your glendenning at boat side makes perfect sense....and I have never heard of a fire started from Hardwiring vesus crappy plugs.

Any rule against it shows total lack of common sense as well as no knowledge of what boating is...when and if those rules ever apply, I hope I am long gone as a boater, because beauracrats, not boaters with brains will be running the show.

 

[Codger2]

I'm not worried about finding a replacement as I will simply have a spare aboard!

That wasn't even complicated was it?

 

[sdowney717]

Bruce...
I thought your ref to the Compass article was worth repeating given the # of posts.

If you have 2 -30A cords/inlets consider having a panel w a transfer sw to connect both sides to one cord. Our Mainship is set up this way and I can run anything I choose w only one cord attached... I just have to manage load to keep it at 20-25 A when using one cord.
Some lications especially when traveling I may only have access to one 30A outlet.

I can provide more info if necessary and you are interested.

I did the same when designing my electrical system.
I bought a Leviton 30 amp two pole switch.
It joins both hots and both neutrals from each cord together.
The switch is actually a locking key switch. I keep the key on a wire right next to the switch, prevents it from being accidentally switched.

It is never a problem. even if I plugged into a split phase 240/120vac plug, the breaker would trip on a direct short. Our marina has free 30 amp power, single plug only. So this way I can power the entire boat.

Other thing, turn off your boat main breaker on the unused 30 amp side, so the unused 30 amp connector socket is not energized, otherwise it will be live. I use a GE breakered weatherproof box, I put in 2 30 amp dual pole breakers, and I can lock the door shut.
The box never gets wet. It is about 6 feet from the shore power sockets.

I got it off Amazon years ago for $6, good price.

https://store.leviton.com/collectio...-side-wired-brown-3032-2l?variant=18216233219

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Seen this happen at a home,when the power system was restored,the transformer was being backfed,blew it right off the pole,when they bucked.Not popular with the neighbors as they were in a power outage situation again,and I believe the municipality,in conjunjunction with the power authority imposed a ten thousand dollar fine,for damages,and unlicensed work.Ouch!! I was contracted to do the correct job.Just about everything was fried.

Seems like all you'd have to do to prevent that is to turn off the main breaker feeding the house. Then the generator couldn't back feed to the transformer.

 

[tinped]

absolutely,just missed that one step,and a costly one.

 

[Steve]

Most Monk 36 have two 30A inlets, one for the air conditioning/heating system, the other for everything else, each has it's separate panel. I have seen at least one owner who used a cord like this FURRION Y-Adapter 2X30A Connector To 30A Male | West Marine worked fine as long as he limited the total consumption to less than 30 Amps. One Aircon unit drew 15 amps.

 

[Bacchus]

Corrosion is not the big enemy of copper inhibiting its ability to conduct electricity,oxidation is,which boeshield makes no claim on.T

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_wire_comparison.JPG
Unoxidized copper wire (left) and oxidized copper wire (right).​

...copper will suffer from oxidation,regardless of the environment,as it attempts to return to its natural state.The marine environment just complicates it. Thanks

Where exactly is the copper you refer to in the boat AC system???

 

[tinped]

Where exactly is the copper you refer to in the boat AC system???

not sure what you mean I referred to. went back thru my posts,no mention of ac anywhere - alternating current,air conditioning?

 

[Bacchus]

I did the same when designing my electrical system...

Other thing, turn off your boat main breaker on the unused 30 amp side, so the unused 30 amp connector socket is not energized, otherwise it will be live. I use a GE breakered weatherproof box, I put in 2 30 amp dual pole breakers, and I can lock the door shut.
The box never gets wet. It is about 6 feet from the shore power sockets.

The proper AC distribution panel will have a transfer Sw to combine the load side and diconnect the #2 inlet.

Same w/ an AC panel w/ a generator - it will allow feeding the panel from Gen or Cord / inlet(s) but not both and it prevents the backfeed to the unused source.

Diagram of my panel that includes both features mentioned above attached - using separate Switches and manually switching is asking for trouble