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Old 11-09-2019, 03:18 AM   #1
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Shipyard fees

Hi there, my boat is currently on the hard ready to be put back into the water.

Went to the Admin to pay.... and bill was like

Nothing that I did not knew was charged, but lousy weather made me loose a lot of precious time.

The yard charges a fixed daily fee rain or shine.
Also a fixed amount for each movement the travellift makes.
Also a fee for electricity from Mo to Fri.

Working hours (even for the owner) are Mo to Fri from 8 AM to 6 PM. Sat from 8 to 12. Sundays> closed.


The repairs and painting of my boat took 46 days.... from which 9 were Sundays, 9 were Saturdays (counting as 4 and a half).
Also had 10 days of rain.

This means that I lost (min) a 50% of the time I will be paying for.

Later today I will have a meeting with the owner to try to get some reduction on the final amount of the bill.

How is it in your yard? Do you get benefits I should try to negotiate ?

Thanks, Cosme

PS I knew the rates... but never expected to stay that long (basically due to poor weather)
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:12 AM   #2
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In my area in the States, the usual is like this: One fee for travel lift out of the water, block, and back in. If they have to move the boat to access others, free up yard space, etc, it is on them. If they need to move the boat for my reasons, its on me.

Then a daily rate for hill time, rain/shine/Sundays don't matter. They also have an option for daily or monthly rate (monthly being much less per day).

Repair jobs are quoted and price agreed to prior to start. If a quoted job blossoms in price due to what ever reason, the change in job scope is discussed and a new price agreed to.

Some jobs are billed on an hourly worker rate, but these are a bit dangerous for the boat owner as a slow or sloppy tech or the yard can let the hours build up. Best to get a quote for the job and keep them to it.

In your case you might ask if there is a monthly rate for hill time and ask to be billed for that times 1.5, instead of the daily rate.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:49 PM   #3
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Same here. Fee to haul and block, then back in. Charge per day to take up a space, then a daily rate for electric.

Up here if you wait for the rain to stop, you will be waiting awhile.

Look the yard can't control the weather and you are taking up space.
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Old 11-09-2019, 01:00 PM   #4
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You didn't post what the actual charges were, so it's difficult to tell whether the charges were unreasonable. If the yard did the painting, and any delays were caused by them just not working on the boat when the WX was suitable to do work, you have cause to ask for a reduction in the yard bill, but if you had an outside contractor do the painting, or did it yourself, what you say you were charged for sounds reasonable, not necessarily the AMOUNT of the charges though, since you didn't post what they were. Also, if the charges were disclosed to you up front, I'm not sure where the issue is.
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Old 11-09-2019, 01:33 PM   #5
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At the boatyard in Maryland there is one fee to haul, block, and put overboard. Monthly fee in the yard including electric, I think is $100 but may have gone up. All work is done on an hourly basis, but extremely reasonable.

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Old 11-09-2019, 03:35 PM   #6
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I'm just glad I don't live where you do.

All my work is done at my "home base" marina. I guess the owner knows I will be using space, in the water or on the hard 365 days a year. If I am out cruising he generally asks if it is OK if he rents my slip to transients. Same while I am on the hard for repairs.

I pay a set per foot rate for a lift and the splash when the repairs are done. If it takes a day, good for everyone. If it takes a week, so be it. No increase in charge. I am generally charged by the hour at either highly skilled labor, semi skilled labor or grunt work, ranging from $100 per hour to about $25 for wash downs and polishing.

There is a marina about 30 miles from "home base" which has the worlds best marine electrician. When I needed work done that "home base" couldn't do I was charged their normal transient rate while I was there. It included about 3 days waiting for parts. I could have gone home but it wasn't worth the effort.

Neither marina has any problem with owners doing their own work, provided they don't make a ton of dust or get in the mechanics way.

I am lucky to live and boat where I do, Northern Wisconsin, Green Bay

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Old 11-09-2019, 06:45 PM   #7
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Marina's vary considerably depending on the space they have available.

My home marina has a very small yard with room for only 2 boats which stay on the rail slip.
There is no sitting on the hard, so prices are very high.

When I did my engine repower, I prepared everything to pull the engine in the water, then got towed to the slip. Pulled the engine and towed back my berth in 1/2 day. Then replaced fuel tanks, cleaned and painted the bilge, prepared new engine mounts etc in the water. A month later I was towed back to the slip, new engine dropped in in and towed back to the berth a couple hours later to do the final hookup.

It was all very cost effective but would have been crazy expensive if I hadn't done 95% of the work in the water.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:32 PM   #8
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I had to leave my boat in a distant marina a year ago due to a transmission malfunction. No lift involved, just taking up their one big dock side tie space. We were planning on waiting a couple of days then taking the boat back downriver ~120 miles on one engine to get the trans fixed. Bad weather with high winds came and I didn't want to run the boat in high winds, going through a lock, with one engine.


High winds stuck around for a month, then my wife and I took a pre-planned trip to Europe for 3 weeks. When we got back the winds were still blowing. Oh, and did I mention we were on 50A power this whole time?


When the winds finally went away I called the marina and negotiated with the marina for a flat fee that covered the dockage, power, etc. It amounted to about a 25% discount. Fair for them, fair for me.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
In my area in the States, the usual is like this: One fee for travel lift out of the water, block, and back in. If they have to move the boat to access others, free up yard space, etc, it is on them. If they need to move the boat for my reasons, its on me.

Then a daily rate for hill time, rain/shine/Sundays don't matter. They also have an option for daily or monthly rate (monthly being much less per day).

Repair jobs are quoted and price agreed to prior to start. If a quoted job blossoms in price due to what ever reason, the change in job scope is discussed and a new price agreed to.

Some jobs are billed on an hourly worker rate, but these are a bit dangerous for the boat owner as a slow or sloppy tech or the yard can let the hours build up. Best to get a quote for the job and keep them to it.

In your case you might ask if there is a monthly rate for hill time and ask to be billed for that times 1.5, instead of the daily rate.
Hi, sorry for the late reply!
As I see, the only difference in my yard is that they do not have a monthly fee (or they do, but do not offer to all customers unless beforehand negotiated).
Electricity is also an issue, because their fee is quite reasonable for a couple of days, but completely weird if staying for a month or so> on the repairs, I have used only a limited number of hand tools, and their fee for electricity is 5 times what I pay for my house.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgoesit View Post
You didn't post what the actual charges were, so it's difficult to tell whether the charges were unreasonable. If the yard did the painting, and any delays were caused by them just not working on the boat when the WX was suitable to do work, you have cause to ask for a reduction in the yard bill, but if you had an outside contractor do the painting, or did it yourself, what you say you were charged for sounds reasonable, not necessarily the AMOUNT of the charges though, since you didn't post what they were. Also, if the charges were disclosed to you up front, I'm not sure where the issue is.
My boat is 56 ft long, weights 30 Tons. Although not a superyacht, it is bigger than small yards can lift, therefore limiting the number of places where I can get it on the hard.
About the charges, I did not mention them because costs in foreign currencies, when translated int U$ may turn out as ridiculously low.... which was not my case: they expect me to pay 2.000 U$ which is a lot of money here and anywhere else.

All labor was on my.

The issue is that sometimes one pays much more for a service (like price for hotel room per day) both parts knowing beforehand that the fee you are charged for is for a short timespan. For longer periods monthly fees usually apply.

On the other hand, mine was a job for max 2 weeks ... but it rained almost every second day, so 2 weeks turned into 46 days.

My post was basically to know how things are somewhere else and perhaps get some tools for negotiating the bill I've got.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFC View Post
I had to leave my boat in a distant marina a year ago due to a transmission malfunction. No lift involved, just taking up their one big dock side tie space. We were planning on waiting a couple of days then taking the boat back downriver ~120 miles on one engine to get the trans fixed. Bad weather with high winds came and I didn't want to run the boat in high winds, going through a lock, with one engine.


High winds stuck around for a month, then my wife and I took a pre-planned trip to Europe for 3 weeks. When we got back the winds were still blowing. Oh, and did I mention we were on 50A power this whole time?


When the winds finally went away I called the marina and negotiated with the marina for a flat fee that covered the dockage, power, etc. It amounted to about a 25% discount. Fair for them, fair for me.
Hi, I do not expect the same deal you were lucky to get.... but perhaps a reduction in some hidden costs (Actually not hidden, but overlooked) that help inflating the bill.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
Marina's vary considerably depending on the space they have available.

My home marina has a very small yard with room for only 2 boats which stay on the rail slip.
There is no sitting on the hard, so prices are very high.

When I did my engine repower, I prepared everything to pull the engine in the water, then got towed to the slip. Pulled the engine and towed back my berth in 1/2 day. Then replaced fuel tanks, cleaned and painted the bilge, prepared new engine mounts etc in the water. A month later I was towed back to the slip, new engine dropped in in and towed back to the berth a couple hours later to do the final hookup.

It was all very cost effective but would have been crazy expensive if I hadn't done 95% of the work in the water.
Despite the money I will be paying to the yard, my boat will get back into the water with a long list of things to be done in the water.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Meisinger View Post
I'm just glad I don't live where you do.

All my work is done at my "home base" marina. I guess the owner knows I will be using space, in the water or on the hard 365 days a year. If I am out cruising he generally asks if it is OK if he rents my slip to transients. Same while I am on the hard for repairs.

I pay a set per foot rate for a lift and the splash when the repairs are done. If it takes a day, good for everyone. If it takes a week, so be it. No increase in charge. I am generally charged by the hour at either highly skilled labor, semi skilled labor or grunt work, ranging from $100 per hour to about $25 for wash downs and polishing.

There is a marina about 30 miles from "home base" which has the worlds best marine electrician. When I needed work done that "home base" couldn't do I was charged their normal transient rate while I was there. It included about 3 days waiting for parts. I could have gone home but it wasn't worth the effort.

Neither marina has any problem with owners doing their own work, provided they don't make a ton of dust or get in the mechanics way.

I am lucky to live and boat where I do, Northern Wisconsin, Green Bay

pete
Hi Pete!

you are a lucky man! The deal you have is really great.

Next time I lift my boat, will come to your marina
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:23 AM   #14
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It's a long ride from Argentina but I'm certain you could save several hundred dollars on the lift and repair. LOL

pete
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:01 PM   #15
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Yards I've used or been in only charge for lay days if the yard isn't doing the work or if you are just storing the boat. If it takes them longer to paint for any reason that is on them. As long as I'm not the one doing the work they don't charge for how long it takes. You can also do your own work while they are working.

Think about it. What incentive do they have to do your work if they are making a profit just having your boat sit there longer without having the work done?
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Old 11-18-2019, 03:04 PM   #16
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A word of caution to my friends on this forum. As a maritime attorney I frequently represent marinas and yards that are owed money. These businesses have maritime liens once they provide services to a vessel and its owner. I say "vessel and its owner" because the vessel has its own identity under the General Maritime Law of the United States. This means that if the owner refuses to pay the bill or the vessel mysteriously disappears overnight the maritime lien attaches to and follows the vessel. All the business owner needs to do is find the vessel and have it arrested after filing an action in a Federal Court within the jurisdiction where the vessel is located. If the owner refuses to post a bond to get it released the vessel can later be sold at a marshal's sale. It does not matter if the vessel was sold to a new owner before it was located. The lien is against the vessel! Be careful when buying a vessel because maritime liens may exist that you are unaware of. I saw a yacht on yachtworld recently that my client, a seaman, was injured on. I immediately notified the broker of my client's lien which he was unaware of. The broker must advise any potential buyers of the maritime lien when offers are made. The lien will be extinguished once my client's claim is resolved. Watch out for these "dirty little secrets" when considering a purchase. Unsuspecting buyers have had to pay liens or risk losing their yachts. Suing the seller is usually a waste of time. If you owe a yard negotiate your best deal and pay the bill. It is cheaper than hiring an attorney or paying the additional costs and fees that a vessel arrest creates.
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Old 11-18-2019, 06:46 PM   #17
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My boat had been on the hard at Seabrook marina in New Orleans for 6 years when I bought her in 2014. The PO had been paying a grandfathered rate of $400/month (which included elec), but once the boat changed hands, I was subject to the current rate of $600/mo. Nine months later I replaced/rebedded all the thru-hulls, repaired a damaged hull section and given her a bottom job. I was planning to move her across Lake Pontchartrain but one engine was seized up and the other, while running, was untested so I didn't trust it to get me across the tricky lake. So I intended to use my TowBoat U.S. port-to-port tow benefit to get her to her new berth.

I informed Seabrook management that I was ready to splash her whenever they could. They said they could do it the next day but the boat would have to leave immediately as she could not stay in the haul-out well and they had no empty slips. this was a lie because I could see 6 empty slips out the window of the manager's office. Nonetheless, I paid my bill through the next day and considered myself fortunate to be done with them.

I called the nearest TowBoat franchise and arranged for the tow on the following day. Next morning, as we were positioning the TraveLift, the TowBoat operator called to inform me that his side of the lake was fogged in and probably would be until it was too late to come get me. Seabrook management agreed to leave my boat on the lift until the next day since they had no other boats to move.

The next morning, the TowBoat operator called to say that he was on his way so I went to the marina office to tell the we were a 'go' for the splash. I was astounded when the manager told me I owed $20 for the extra day! SeaBrook Marina had collected over $33,000 in yard fees for this boat, but this greedy s.o.b. wouldn't waive 20 measly bucks!!

I'll have to be really desperate before I give these folks another $.
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Old 11-18-2019, 07:45 PM   #18
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$2000 to lift a 46 ft boat and store in the yard doesn't overly expensive to me.

You may have been able to negotiate a standby rate prior to the work being done, but now I think you'd be lucky to get it reduced.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neurodoc View Post
Hi there, my boat is currently on the hard ready to be put back into the water.

Went to the Admin to pay.... and bill was like

Nothing that I did not knew was charged, but lousy weather made me loose a lot of precious time.

The yard charges a fixed daily fee rain or shine.
Also a fixed amount for each movement the travellift makes.
Also a fee for electricity from Mo to Fri.

Working hours (even for the owner) are Mo to Fri from 8 AM to 6 PM. Sat from 8 to 12. Sundays> closed.


The repairs and painting of my boat took 46 days.... from which 9 were Sundays, 9 were Saturdays (counting as 4 and a half).
Also had 10 days of rain.

This means that I lost (min) a 50% of the time I will be paying for.

Later today I will have a meeting with the owner to try to get some reduction on the final amount of the bill.

How is it in your yard? Do you get benefits I should try to negotiate ?

Thanks, Cosme

PS I knew the rates... but never expected to stay that long (basically due to poor weather)

The only complaint you have is for the extra days you were charged for being on the hard longer due to weather and for being charged for Sundays and half of Saturday.

When you haul a boat in a boatyard, you are paying for the storage of the boat - rent. If the weather is uncoperative, it's not the boatyard responsibility. You could have covered the boat.

You didn't state if painting topsides or bottom. Here in the PNW, where rain is always a possibility I tent boats when painting topsides or other tasks that require dry conditions. Bottoms are not as critical.

It would be totally different if the yard was doing the work. Lay days should not be charged for delay due to weather. The yard should tent the boat. It should be spelled out in the estimate/contract.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:32 AM   #20
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It`s not clear, but I gather the Yard was not doing the work,just providing workspace, electricity, and lift. What was the alternative when it rained or weekends intervened? Relaunching? What would that cost? You knew the rates, but perhaps had not thought through how they might operate in all circumstances.
I think anything you shave off is good. Are they doing the work once back in the water or providing a work berth for that? If so, that might give more negotiation room, or be reason to do the work elsewhere.
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