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Old 05-13-2016, 01:23 PM   #21
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This...like many alcohol discussions becomes one of emotion more than anything else....

Despite the simplistic nature of general "responsibility".....controlling society with politics and opinion does little to solve the problem.

Many "beliefs" about alcohol are starting to be shown that there are many things about humans that cause the same dysfunction as alcohol. We are seeing texting become a larger issue than alcohol.

Stick to actual proven facts and there become a lot more smoke and mirrors on both sides of this discussion than anything.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:06 PM   #22
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This...like many alcohol discussions becomes one of emotion more than anything else....

Despite the simplistic nature of general "responsibility".....controlling society with politics and opinion does little to solve the problem.

Many "beliefs" about alcohol are starting to be shown that there are many things about humans that cause the same dysfunction as alcohol. We are seeing texting become a larger issue than alcohol.

Stick to actual proven facts and there become a lot more smoke and mirrors on both sides of this discussion than anything.
Actual fact is, the discussion is alcohol.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
This...like many alcohol discussions becomes one of emotion more than anything else....

Despite the simplistic nature of general "responsibility".....controlling society with politics and opinion does little to solve the problem.

Many "beliefs" about alcohol are starting to be shown that there are many things about humans that cause the same dysfunction as alcohol. We are seeing texting become a larger issue than alcohol.

Stick to actual proven facts and there become a lot more smoke and mirrors on both sides of this discussion than anything.
Actual fact is, the discussion is alcohol. Other distractions as noted are usually brought up by people who imbibe while boating. It's a poor defense.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:18 PM   #24
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Actual fact is, the discussion is alcohol. Other distractions as noted are usually brought up by people who imbibe while boating. It's a poor defense.
Yes. Saying that boating under the influence is not important because texting and recreational drugs also cause accidents is pretty dumb.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:44 PM   #25
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Yes. Saying that boating under the influence is not important because texting and recreational drugs also cause accidents is pretty dumb.
PSneed's post went right over my head. I have no idea what he was trying to say (I used to think my reading comprehension was pretty good. Now, not so much.) but I don't think he was implying that BUI is not important. (I could be wrong however)
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:44 PM   #26
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I didn't used to think so, but what I've seen throughout 40+ years of both recreational and commercial boating, mostly in Florida waters, has convinced me: Florida is way overdue for mandatory boater licensing and education. BUI is certainly a problem, but what's even easier to see is the widespread ignorance among recreational boaters. All it takes to get behind the helm of any boat is a checkbook or a credit card. As long as that's true, a trip out onto a lake, river, or the Intracoastal Waterway continues to grow riskier.

As to the issue of "freedom" - everyone's right to be ignorant and act recklessly ends at my right to take my passengers out on my boat and return them safely to the dock.
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:11 PM   #27
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I am not supporting BUI....

However.....whenever I hear things like zero tolerance...I want it to app,y for everything then.

And we know that doesn't work....

Finding the root cause of accidents is the most important thing......but I know when to bow out of an emotional topic.
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:19 PM   #28
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Bowing out is a good idea before someone points out the previous thread where you defend your right to have a beer or two while boating.
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:36 PM   #29
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FWIW, WA State updated its law a few years ago. You can drink while boating, but you can't be under the influence of alcohol. The state defines that as a blood alcohol level of .08% or higher. BTW it is also against the law to operate a vessel in a reckless manner. The law now holds that anyone operating a vessel has given implied consent for a blood alcohol test to be administered when a LEO has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is operating under the influence. Refusing a blood alcohol test is a civil violation subject to fine.

The civil fine for refusing the test is $1,000. The penalty if convicted of BUI is up to $364 days in jail and $5,000.

Personally, I think the law was an improvement.
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Old 05-13-2016, 08:50 PM   #30
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We have our share north of the border. The photo of the aftermath is pretty nasty!
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/04...n_6989444.html
The speed boat operator was found guilty.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2303198/sp...-shuswap-lake/

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Old 05-13-2016, 09:22 PM   #31
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Your freedom doesn't include killing or maiming me or anyone else. Otherwise knock yourself out.
Why are you implying that freedom to travel must result in killing someone? Please explain the logic.
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Old 05-13-2016, 09:58 PM   #32
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Are we supposed to take this as you disagreeing post?

You have to have a license and take a test to drive a car or truck.
You have to have a license and take a test to drive a motorcycle.
You have to have a license and take a test to fly an airplane.
You have to have a license and take a test to be a plumber or electrician.

Why do you think operating a boat should be different?

You give up a lot of so called "freedoms" to live in a society. You give up the right to pee or defecate wherever you want to. You give up the right to walk naked down the street.

Testing and licensing of boat operators is to protect the other people on the water including you and your loved ones. If you are offended by being required to prove that you are capable of safely operating a boat, maybe golf would be a better hobby. Of course golf has rules too.
Right to travel is a fundamental human right, not a privilege granted by a state.
Your example of an electrician or plumber exam is inappropriate. The state has a right to regulate a trade, which is not a God given right like the right to travel. Licensing driving and operating a plane is borderline infringement of human rights too, although one may argue that driver's license is only required on public roads, and that there are alternative ways to exercise you freedom - you can walk. Unfortunately, you cannot walk on water; sailing, or boating, is the only way to travel over water.

The important thing here is: I don't need your permission to exercise my rights, which is what licensing is all about - permission. I do not need your permission to go from A to B (including by means of sailing) as long as I am not crossing your property, or to eat, or to sleep, or even to type this message. AND I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IT THIS WAY.

And yes, it was a disagreeing post. I value boating mostly as a means to freedom. There is really not much more to it. It is very painful for me to observe how easily people give up their civil rights in exchange for security, but it is their business. At the end, they will have neither, as usual, but it is their choice. What really concerns me is when someone insists on taking away MY rights so they can feel more secure.
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Old 05-13-2016, 11:20 PM   #33
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Lost, you can travel however you want a few miles offshore in international waters as long as your boat isn't documented in the US. :-)
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Old 05-13-2016, 11:23 PM   #34
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Lost, you can travel however you want a few miles offshore in international waters as long as your boat isn't documented in the US. :-)

And North Korea, I get it.
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Old 05-14-2016, 12:49 AM   #35
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Are we supposed to take this as you disagreeing post?

You have to have a license and take a test to drive a car or truck.
You have to have a license and take a test to drive a motorcycle.
You have to have a license and take a test to fly an airplane.
You have to have a license and take a test to be a plumber or electrician.

Why do you think operating a boat should be different?

You give up a lot of so called "freedoms" to live in a society. You give up the right to pee or defecate wherever you want to. You give up the right to walk naked down the street.

Testing and licensing of boat operators is to protect the other people on the water including you and your loved ones. If you are offended by being required to prove that you are capable of safely operating a boat, maybe golf would be a better hobby. Of course golf has rules too.

Funny country America its easier to buy a big mother fuzker gun than a beer
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Old 05-14-2016, 02:55 AM   #36
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What is horrifying is that I wasn't even close to the .08% level that WA state uses as the threshold for DUI. Having never thought about it before, I am now a strong supporter of the effort in some states to decrease the legal limit to .05%.
0.05% is the max legal limit for driving throughout Australia, as it happens, and it is policed fairly actively. However, what is even more scary is that about 25% of those picked up, are also taking other psych-active drugs.

What is it about human beings that they go to such lengths to abuse their bodies, and others as collateral damage..?
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Old 05-14-2016, 03:06 AM   #37
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Why are you implying that freedom to travel must result in killing someone? Please explain the logic.
Lost H, are you being deliberately perverse..? Yanking our chains, maybe..?
No-one is disputing your right to travel, only that you be in adequate control of what you are travelling in. Boats and road vehicles out of good control are huge and dangerous weapons. We would think that is the obvious point being debated, as coming back to WifeyB's OP, the tragedy of a teenage life lost was because of someone 'travelling' dangerously, under the influence, and insufficiently experienced in driving the watercraft they were using. What's hard to understand about this..?
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Old 05-14-2016, 08:11 AM   #38
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Why are you implying that freedom to travel must result in killing someone? Please explain the logic.
I don't think I made any such implication. Travel all you want. Just don't do it in a way that endangers other people.

If someone wants to operate a boat, I'm 100% in favor of requiring them to demonstrate that they can do it without endangering other people and property. It's the same with operating a car.
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Old 05-14-2016, 08:24 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
Right to travel is a fundamental human right, not a privilege granted by a state.
Your example of an electrician or plumber exam is inappropriate. The state has a right to regulate a trade, which is not a God given right like the right to travel. Licensing driving and operating a plane is borderline infringement of human rights too, although one may argue that driver's license is only required on public roads, and that there are alternative ways to exercise you freedom - you can walk. Unfortunately, you cannot walk on water; sailing, or boating, is the only way to travel over water.

The important thing here is: I don't need your permission to exercise my rights, which is what licensing is all about - permission. I do not need your permission to go from A to B (including by means of sailing) as long as I am not crossing your property, or to eat, or to sleep, or even to type this message. AND I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IT THIS WAY.

And yes, it was a disagreeing post. I value boating mostly as a means to freedom. There is really not much more to it. It is very painful for me to observe how easily people give up their civil rights in exchange for security, but it is their business. At the end, they will have neither, as usual, but it is their choice. What really concerns me is when someone insists on taking away MY rights so they can feel more secure.
I'll skip over your imaginary person who is telling you which rights can be regulated and which can't......

I think your view is horrendously self-centered. All you care about it what YOU want to do, and are completely ignoring what harm it might bring to other people. Does your "freedom to travel" include a right to smash your car into someone else? Smash your boat into another boat? Run someone over with your car?
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Old 05-14-2016, 08:27 AM   #40
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Lost H, are you being deliberately perverse..? Yanking our chains, maybe..?
No-one is disputing your right to travel, only that you be in adequate control of what you are travelling in. Boats and road vehicles out of good control are huge and dangerous weapons. We would think that is the obvious point being debated, as coming back to WifeyB's OP, the tragedy of a teenage life lost was because of someone 'travelling' dangerously, under the influence, and insufficiently experienced in driving the watercraft they were using. What's hard to understand about this..?
Oh stop it. There you go being rational again.
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