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Old 04-17-2012, 11:26 PM   #21
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Marin,
One of the really great things about the DFs rudders is that they are high aspect ratio and much more effective than most for their area. The rudders on your GB do look a bit small. As to the drag .....at 6 knots Willy is almost totally unaffected but when (if ever) you rev up those big Lehman engines prop drag could be at least a small issue. But you would benefit from the DF rudders.
Art,
I've seen lots of Tollies out of the water and the deep V hull that's not very deep is typical of the vast majority of planing hulls designed after "Moppie" trounced all the competition in 1961 at the Miami Nassau power boat 500 mi race. If I remember correctly Tollies have a long straight constant deadrise over most of the length of the hull. Even without a keel your directional stability should be fine and w the Tollies relatively high aspect ratio bottom pitch stability should be excellent even better. The V at the transom should help reduce the need for big rudders in all but the smallest boats.
Mark,
For the size of your boat your rudder is'nt exceptionally large. And I'll bet it's plenty big enough.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:01 AM   #22
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For a look-see at my 34' Tolly tri cabin's vintage of bottom. Not my actual Tolly cause I'm not much into taking picts. Picts you see of our Tolly were likely not taken by me. However, it is the bottom of a same model Tolly.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:15 AM   #23
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But you would benefit from the DF rudders.
I'm gonna go way out on a limb here, but I betcha that when American Marine designed the GB36 that they went and asked someone real smart how the turny things at the back should be designed. I bet they asked things like "how big should they be," and "what shape should they be." Stuff like that. They might have even had someone like that in the office there in Kowloon. You know, one of them naval architecher-type guys. Since they'd been building boats since right after the ark grounded out on that hill, I bet they knew at least one guy like that.

And I'm betting that guy got out his slide rule and books and tables and charts and thought back to what he'd learned in naval architecher school and did a bunch of calculations and said, "You know, the turny things for your twin engine, 36 foot boat should be this big and look like this."

And I'll bet he had a bunch of numbers and graphs and stuff to prove that he was right. And I'm betting that American Marine built them that way since they'd paid this guy a bunch of money to tell them what to do.

Which means---- I'm betting---- that the turny things on the twin engine GB36 are exactly right for what the boat is supposed to do. Just like I'm betting that the turny things for that deFever are exactly right for what that boat is supposed to do.

Now I don't know nothin' 'bout no naval architecher. What I do know is that when I turn the wheel thingy in our boat that's attached to the those turny thing doohickies, the stern moves sideways right now and right quick. From day one I have been impressed by how responsive the boat is at idle, cruise speed, and even standing still. Them two wee spady bits hanging down in the back do an amazing job of aiming that 30,000 pound boat (we weighed it on the Travelift yesterday) where I want to aim it 'specially seein' as how it's got a big ole keely thing hanging way down underbeneath the boat tryin' to keep it from swinging its ass sideways.

Which is why I'm betting--- and I admit I could be wronger than a turbofan on a Livingston---- that the fellow what designed them two spady bits got the size and shape exactly right for that boat.

A clue what I'm using to think that perhaps I'm right is that they started building that two-engine GB36 back in the 1960s and they builded them until about 2001 or therabouts. And from what I seen in the yard next door I don't think they changed the size or shape of the turny things in all that time. They did change what they made them from. First they was bronze and later they was fiberglass. But I'm pretty sure--- but not a hunnerd percent sure I admit--- that the turny things never changed in all those years. Which you'd a thunk if they'd been the wrong size or shape they'd a figgered that out at some point during them thirty-five years and changed 'em. I don't think they did which means if I'm right that first guy must have been, too.








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Old 04-18-2012, 12:37 AM   #24
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Well, double slap my knee, Marin - - > Dere ist som dang gdst humer inst yaa! And, bout thems directional paddels unter yu boat - I agrezz wit cha! Mattr O' Fact I thinks I cud say same dam thang bout my Tolly, i.e. Ed Monk Sr. and Ed Monk Jr. as Tollycraft's deecades serven Navel Ark-e-tects!
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:33 AM   #25
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Mark,
For the size of your boat your rudder is'nt exceptionally large. And I'll bet it's plenty big enough.
Eric, let's just say I've nothing to regret with the Coot's responsiveness to rudder adjustments at all speeds, even at two or less knots in the marina. A short burst of power "kicks."
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:48 AM   #26
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Marin's start'in to sound like Sarah Pailin. All I'm say'in Marin is that I think the GB was conceived as a faster boat than it turned out in the present and was definitely in a faster category than the DeFever. hence the rather large difference in rudder size.
Mark,
All I'm say'in is that your rudder is of average size and I'm sure it works quite well. Not inadequate just not excessively large as I thought you implied.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:10 AM   #27
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Mark,
All I'm say'in is that your rudder is of average size and I'm sure it works quite well. Not inadequate just not excessively large as I thought you implied.
Eric, naval architect George Buehler says the Coot's "rudder is oversized." I can take that with a grain of salt too.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:33 AM   #28
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Marin's start'in to sound like Sarah Pailin. All I'm say'in Marin is that I think the GB was conceived as a faster boat than it turned out in the present
To be powered by what in the 1960s? There were no "big" diesels for recreational boats back then. In fact most of them were still being powered by gas engines. American Marine never made any claims for speed in their literature for the GB and I've read most of it over the years from the 60s on. They talk about reliability, they talk about economy, they talk about efficiency, they talk about quality, and they talk about the stable ride of their hard-chine hull. But never a peep about speed.

Speed doesn't become a word in the GB lexicon until the 1980s and it became a major selling point in the '90s. And of course it is today with their new fast hulls. By the later '80s there were more powerful engines that could fit into the same space formerly occuped by the FL120 and 135 so buyers who wanted to go faster could now take advantage of that aspect of the hull design. But it most definitely did not start out that way.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:47 AM   #29
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Speed doesn't become a word in the GB lexicon until the 1980s and it became a major selling point in the '90s. And of course it is today with their new fast hulls.
Ouch. That's definitely not trawler-like.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:30 AM   #30
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After good results last year, I once again coated my metal with Barnacle Buster.

Dave
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:01 AM   #31
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After good results last year, I once again coated my metal with Barnacle Buster.

Dave
Dave - Don't think odd of me (lol) - but - I really do appreciate the design/look of your boat's BUTT!
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:29 PM   #32
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Talking

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Dave - Don't think odd of me (lol) - but - I really do appreciate the design/look of your boat's BUTT!
Easy there big guy!

That was just a tease shot... here's the rest! All nice and shiney and waiting for the travel-lift to get to her.

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Old 04-18-2012, 02:57 PM   #33
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Typical - Always a dog sniffen the butt - LOL

Looks real nice! I like your boat!!
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:03 PM   #34
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Thanks! The butt-sniffing dog is probably trying to figure out how the heck to get on board where she belongs!

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Old 04-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #35
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Magicbus,
Nice hull. Interesting how they sculpted the stern thruster into the stern. Is the "Barnacle Buster" a simple "brush it on coating"?
Marin,
I have the 1966 Yachting magazine's "Boat Owners Buyer's Guide" and there are many engines w lots more power than the Lehman. Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar and 6 or 7 others as well. Incidentally Lehman is listed as "Lehman Manufacturing Co" in Linden NJ. THey list a 70 and 108 hp engine of 220 and 330 cu in. And in brackets they say "Econ-o-Power". Perkins made a 160 hp engine. So there were plenty of higher power engines.
Mark,
"rudder is oversized."
If Mr Buehler says so then it must be true. But I would be inclined to ask him "compared to what?". But if I had to say bigger or smaller I'd say bigger.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:30 PM   #36
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Seems a shame to put it back in the water and hide them again.......
Agree! My boat looks so crisp and clean just before spring launching. But, I didn't buy her to just look at.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:01 PM   #37
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Magicbus,
Nice hull. Interesting how they sculpted the stern thruster into the stern. Is the "Barnacle Buster" a simple "brush it on coating"?
It comes in a spray can and I got it wrong - it's called Barnacle Barrier. It's $23 a can at Jamestown Distributers (click here). I use a can and a half but I have the wing engine and I do all my scoops with it. I get the the Petit thinner to wipe the metal down before application then do two thin coats.

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Old 04-19-2012, 01:33 PM   #38
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Magicbus,

Marin,
I have the 1966 Yachting magazine's "Boat Owners Buyer's Guide" and there are many engines w lots more power than the Lehman. Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar and 6 or 7 others as well. Incidentally Lehman is listed as "Lehman Manufacturing Co" in Linden NJ. THey list a 70 and 108 hp engine of 220 and 330 cu in. And in brackets they say "Econ-o-Power".
Eric--- Thanks for the info on diesels back in the 60s. I didn't realize there were that many marine diesel options back then. I knew about Detroits of course, or "Jimmies"--- the 6-71 was the power for my all-time favorite kind of boat--- but I didn't realize Cummins and Cat had entered the marine market that early. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that American Marine did not include speed in their promotion of the attributes of their new Grand Banks line despite the fact that Ken Smith's hull design could be driven much faster than the boats were initially powered to go.

Econ-O-Power was Lehman's brand name for their marinization components. For example, the big coolant-cooled exhaust manifold that is part of Lehman's marinization kit that turned the Ford of England Dorset industrial/agricultural diesel into the Ford Lehman 120 has "Econ-O-Power" embossed into the casting as I'm sure you've seen.

Barnacle Barrier is the least expensive of the three prop coatings offered by the yard in Bellingham. They said it would take two spray cans at $20 each to do both props on our boat. I was considering this but after talking to the yard manager I decided against it. Not that it doesn't work, but because according to the yard it's only effective for a year at most, and less if you use your boat a lot. If we hauled every year and had been having a problem with growth on the prop he said it can be a good idea.

But we use the boat year round fairly regularly winds permitting, and haul (normally) every two to three years. We've never had any issues with growth on the prop and of course we have the boat dove on twice a year and the diver knocks off whatever's managed to get started. So it didn't appear--- and the yard manager agreed--- that in our case Barnacle Barrier would be worthwhile.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:00 PM   #39
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1966 we took out a 155 hp Nordberg Knight gasser and put a spanking new Perkins Turbo Charged 180 hp into a 38' one-off, SD hull, raised-deck, FB, Sprotfisher convertable. Keel laid 1951 and hull built by Freeport Point Ship Yard. Interior and decks custom built by the lead master carpenter/shipwright at Brooklyn Navy Yard. Boat was constructed for a NY Harbor Pilot. Best woodie I've ever experienced. Front deck, superstructure and Interior were art work in Philippine mahogany. With the Perkins shed cruise economically at 12 knts no sweat. As I recall WOT was 15 knts. We had special water foil stabilizers on her keel... that dad designed and patented. Stable Jessie for sure! If she was here and still viable Id probably buy her. Last seen in RI, circa 1990. Hope shes still being taken care of, I well remember every inch of that boat!
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #40
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And now back to our regularly scheduled program.


Don't mind the scum line, that got fixed the next day - along with that nasty little list to starboard!
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