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05-05-2017, 09:44 AM
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#101
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
One day, about 5 years ago, I looked across the small basin known as Banana River Marina at 100+ manatees sunning, that is about (give or take) 100,000 pounds of warm blooded eating crapping machines and wondered if I should consider flushing my 1/3 full 12 gallon holding tank because of the possible pollution it may cause.
Good point FF.
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If it makes eco-warriors feel any better, whale poop is considered an important contributor to the sequestration of CO2 because of the critical effect it has on krill populations in the ocean. Based on that, every time I flush treated sewage I know I am doing my little part to save the planet from Man Made Global Warming. I'm doing it for the children.
Look at This: Enormous Whales Have Enormous (and Interesting) Poop - 80beats : 80beats
In all seriousness, mariners flushing their toilets as they meander around the water is a net benefit to the ecosystem. The big problem is the bacteria and viruses that are particularly problematic to humans contained in sewage, if not to other critters. Once waste is treated and discharged away from stagnant or confined waters there is no real downside for the ecosystem, even if it creeps people out. And having cleaned river otter poop off my deck more than once, I can't say that a part per million of untreated otter poo is any more noxious to me than the same concentration of treated human poo. And if I am being realistic, the latter is preferable.
For years, the City of Victoria has simply pumped the sewage produced by the entire population out past Race Rocks. No one every found any significant contamination of sea life that I know of, even though in the immediate area of the discharge you can find "degraded kelp" from exposure to 21 million gallons of raw sewage per day. Someone will have to explain to me how 80,000 peoples' untreated waste dumped into a single location of the Strait of Juan de Fuca every single day produces barely perceptible harm, but my flushing my treated waste all over the place while motoring along would be a problem.
__________________
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handey
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05-05-2017, 09:50 AM
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#102
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Guru
City: Fort Pierce
Vessel Name: Florita Ann
Vessel Model: 1982 Present
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,935
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Delfin, I like the way you think!
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05-05-2017, 09:51 AM
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#103
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
I guess I am a bit confused. Treatment, in this context, may mean incineration, chlorination, formaldehyde treatment and I am sure a few others. If formaldehyde, a la the TDX system referred to, the longer the effluent is exposed to the dosage of treatment chemical the better, or at least according to the public health data I can find. So could you help me understand why treating waste, then holding it before discharge with the e coli killing chemical sloshing around in a tank isn't allowed?
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As I understand it (and my understanding is often wrong) it is because the treatment systems reduce the amount of bacteria in the waste, but they don't eliminate it. Over time, since there are plenty of nutrients, the bacterial count will increase since a holding tank is a perfect breeding ground for E. coli.
Think of a carton of pasteurized milk. The pasteurization process reduces the bacterial count in the milk, but doesn't eliminate it. Leave that milk carton out on the counter and it will spoil quickly as the bacteria multiply. Leave it in the fridge and it will spoil more slowly, but the bacteria will still proliferate.
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05-05-2017, 11:36 AM
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#104
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,148
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And a few oz of bleach before dumping the tank full of pre treated sewage would most likely eliminate it to even lower levels of ecoli than from the original treatment.
Plus my research has shown that tiny amount of free clorune released into the open environment will cause no harm.
Guess we can be trusted to handle giant boats, just not a simple sewage system but land based systems that arent managed well either are OK.
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05-05-2017, 11:52 AM
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#105
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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So the key statement to me is "to eliminate the discharge of untreated sewage from vessels into the waters of the United States,". Unless a person is considered a vessel it is leagal to eliminate oneself over the side.
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05-05-2017, 08:00 PM
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#106
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays
As I understand it (and my understanding is often wrong) it is because the treatment systems reduce the amount of bacteria in the waste, but they don't eliminate it. Over time, since there are plenty of nutrients, the bacterial count will increase since a holding tank is a perfect breeding ground for E. coli.
Think of a carton of pasteurized milk. The pasteurization process reduces the bacterial count in the milk, but doesn't eliminate it. Leave that milk carton out on the counter and it will spoil quickly as the bacteria multiply. Leave it in the fridge and it will spoil more slowly, but the bacteria will still proliferate.
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Could be true, but I was just wondering where this concept was codified into law.
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05-05-2017, 10:45 PM
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#107
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Grand Vizier
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,816
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One of the things that makes some people highly skeptical of pronouncements about what is, and is not, harmful is the tendency of those declaring things harmful of being sometimes less than reliable sources of information. For example, if you use formaldehyde for disinfecting and treating raw sewage, but read that California has declared that formaldehyde is "non bio-degradable", you might not want to use it.
http://rvlife.com/california-bans-formaldehyde
Unfortunately, that is chemical nonsense, because formaldehyde is a naturally occurring substance that is completely bio-degradable, at least according to chemists.
www.americanchemistry.com/Media/PressReleasesTranscripts/ACC-news-releases/Formaldehyde-Is-Biodegradable.html
All this means to me is that you have to do your own research and thinking when it comes to figuring out what the "right" thing to do is. Including how to handle Marine sanitation.
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05-05-2017, 11:53 PM
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#108
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TF Site Team
City: Ex-Brisbane, (Australia), now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
Very, very good question. I have never been able to understand that. The Raritan Electro Scan-San treatment system uses high amperage DC current to foster a chemical reaction thereby making acid to kill the germs. That is the way I understand the process anyhow. This leads back to Delfins question.
. WHY?
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Sorry to be a bit pedantic, Mule, but small point of order here...the current mentioned above works like that in a salt water chlorinated swimming pool, and produces high levels of chlorine, by splitting the NaCl (salt) into Na & Chlorine, which is highly alkaline, (not acid) and that does the sanitising. However, main point is...it works. Here in Aus one can, I believe, discharge this treated effluent, in most places as long as not in anchorages, enclosed waters like marinas, close to seawater farms, and other declared NDZs.
__________________
Pete
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05-06-2017, 02:35 AM
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#109
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Master and Commander
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,559
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I avoid entering swimming pools or other waters. Especially crowded public pools. A short, warm shower suffices.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
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05-06-2017, 05:36 AM
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#110
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
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If one looks at depression era photos of Coney Island Beaches, they were awash with happy folks (that could get there for 5c) swimming in untreated sewage.
No harm seems to have come to our parents , or grandparents.
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05-06-2017, 07:58 AM
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#111
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Guru
City: Gulf Shores, Ala.
Vessel Name: Ulysses
Vessel Model: Romsdal 1963
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B
Sorry to be a bit pedantic, Mule, but small point of order here...the current mentioned above works like that in a salt water chlorinated swimming pool, and produces high levels of chlorine, by splitting the NaCl (salt) into Na & Chlorine, which is highly alkaline, (not acid) and that does the sanitising. However, main point is...it works. Here in Aus one can, I believe, discharge this treated effluent, in most places as long as not in anchorages, enclosed waters like marinas, close to seawater farms, and other declared NDZs.
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Pretty close but not exactly correct. The salt is split with the CL turning into Hypochlorous ACID. The "alkalinity" of the water is its ability to neutralize acids. What is produced on the CL side is indeed an acid.
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05-06-2017, 05:59 PM
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#112
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Guru
City: North Charleston, SC
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
........... All this means to me is that you have to do your own research and thinking when it comes to figuring out what the "right" thing to do is. Including how to handle Marine sanitation.
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Nope - As you point out in your post, politicians have already determined what the "right" thing to do is.
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05-07-2017, 06:57 AM
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#113
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
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"Nope - As you point out in your post, politicians have already determined what the "right" thing to do is."
Politicos dont give a damn about the right thing to do,,
Only about the right thing to say. AKA , Boob bait for the Bubbas.
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05-07-2017, 07:42 AM
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#114
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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Politicians will say anything to get votes and seat in their parasite jobs.
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