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Old 07-05-2014, 02:54 PM   #81
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This is the root of this discussion.

I would like to point out that the OP's original comment about the boats in Alaska being FD is absolutely incorrect! Its not the OP that was incorrect, its the information sources he has available that are incorrect.

I am in Alaska and have boated here for a decade and a half now. I'm also in the northern ice free part of Alaska and am home based out of Seward Alaska.

The VAST majority of 30-75' power boats up here are represent the cross section of what I consider TF members. There is a mix of Trawler, yacht and sport fish type boats.

There is ONE actual round chine FD recreational power boat. Its a Nordhavn 46, that the owner just bought last year for use during his pending retirement.

The problem is that if you read Passagemaker, and I do, you can be led to the conclusion that you need a Nordhavn or other FD boat to explore here. Dont get me wrong I love Nordhavns. I really do. A 52 Nordhavn pulled into port last week and almost everybody on the dock drooled.

Then we got back in our TT's, and our Tollys, and our Bayliners and we weno out in the Gulf of Alaska and went fishing.
Excellent reminder. Bayliner is one that really doesn't get the credit it deserves. They built very good cruisers before Brunswick decided they needed a name change so they could charge more. People get distorted views wherever they go. Read a magazine devoted to faster boats and you'd think it was all gofast. Passagemaker has a lot of passage makers....lol. Here you see a lot of different type boats for trawler type cruising. Sail forums and you'd think power was evil.

Nordhavn is a great boat but in Alaska you'll see far more Bayliners. You'll see Grand Banks everywhere because they've had such good marketing in the PNW in the past. But there is not one boat that everyone should have. And some is regional. We're from South Florida and not yet ever seen a Delta although lots of Trinity's. Saw my first Northern recently. Of course it's on dry land after a bit of a launching mishap. A lot more tugs in the PNW. When we went to the Chesapeake Kadey's everywhere. Go to the Northeast and suddenly Hinckley and Hunt. NC coast and you'll see Hatteras and more Hatteras.

Ultimately, it's not about the label on the boat or the label people use to describe. It's about finding the right boat for you.
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:13 PM   #82
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Excellent reminder. Bayliner is one that really doesn't get the credit it deserves. They built very good cruisers before Brunswick decided they needed a name change so they could charge more. People get distorted views wherever they go. Read a magazine devoted to faster boats and you'd think it was all gofast. Passagemaker has a lot of passage makers....lol. Here you see a lot of different type boats for trawler type cruising. Sail forums and you'd think power was evil.

Nordhavn is a great boat but in Alaska you'll see far more Bayliners. You'll see Grand Banks everywhere because they've had such good marketing in the PNW in the past. But there is not one boat that everyone should have. And some is regional. We're from South Florida and not yet ever seen a Delta although lots of Trinity's. Saw my first Northern recently. Of course it's on dry land after a bit of a launching mishap. A lot more tugs in the PNW. When we went to the Chesapeake Kadey's everywhere. Go to the Northeast and suddenly Hinckley and Hunt. NC coast and you'll see Hatteras and more Hatteras.

Ultimately, it's not about the label on the boat or the label people use to describe. It's about finding the right boat for you.
Cruising happiness along any coastline or set of islands isn't about the boat, its about the captain, and its about not having to adhere to a schedule. Its about not leaving port unless the weather is very nice. This is a concept us "weekend" boaters do not understand because we have schedules.

So, if you are looking for a boat to use in retirement, think ahead. Think about comfort. I keep saying it but think about affordability. If you can buy a for example $250,000 boat and retire with it in your mid 50's, or if you can work another 10 years and buy a million dollar boat which option would make YOU happier? Most of us trade time for money. How much time do you have? How much time do you want to give?
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:31 PM   #83
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Whenever I discuss what is needed for a cruising boat to go to an area I ignore the purely local boats. Their needs are different. What percentage of the cruising boats coming up from the lower 48 states are planing versus full displacement?
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:39 PM   #84
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Asking what cruising boats are in Alaska is like asking what boats are in Key West, Norfolk and Newfoundland on the East coast.

Getting to Juneau could be almost any boat, getting to Homer takes a bit more...but not a whole lot more boat or much better captain.... and cruising to Attu Island or Nome would take yet another level of boat and or skill in my eyes.

Kevin can blast that if he wants...or hopefully see my point...but I know something about all of those waters from my travels on USCG Cutters and living and pleasure boating out of Kodiak for 2 years...plus the many rescue and fisheries missions I flew up there seeing what it was like on the water 365 days a year.

Just like any water...some people are only comfortable and even capable with certain types of boats while other are perfectly happy and safe circumnavigating in bathtubs.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:51 PM   #85
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I think all the trawlers mentioned have their place and each type has probably multiple examples of successful long passages. However if you are talking the big U and we stick to pure sea keeping ability economy and crew comfort and safety the motor sailor or modern ocean crossing sail boat with a good auxiliary and fuel tankage has to be #1. As for speed most long range motor boats run 6-7 knots unless they are large. A good sailboat of equal WL can with wind and motor also average 6-7 K and roll stabilization is built into the design. The basic design of most open ocean rated sail boats is far superior to the typical high freeboard power boats being quoted for the big U transit. Until recently most long range cruising has been done with sailing or sail assisted boats. Beebe kind of helped push a revolution in ocean crossing motor boats. Nevertheless the sail boat is still there and in many ways with modern diesel motors still the ocean jumping champ.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:31 PM   #86
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I think all the trawlers mentioned have their place and each type has probably multiple examples of successful long passages. However if you are talking the big U and we stick to pure sea keeping ability economy and crew comfort and safety the motor sailor or modern ocean crossing sail boat with a good auxiliary and fuel tankage has to be #1. As for speed most long range motor boats run 6-7 knots unless they are large. A good sailboat of equal WL can with wind and motor also average 6-7 K and roll stabilization is built into the design. The basic design of most open ocean rated sail boats is far superior to the typical high freeboard power boats being quoted for the big U transit. Until recently most long range cruising has been done with sailing or sail assisted boats. Beebe kind of helped push a revolution in ocean crossing motor boats. Nevertheless the sail boat is still there and in many ways with modern diesel motors still the ocean jumping champ.
Guess we're out of luck since we don't have sails and don't run at 6-7 knots.

As to the Big U, it doesn't require major sea keeping ability as long as one doesn't rush through bad windows. It can be done without crossing any major waters. Not sure how we got from the Big U to ocean jumping.

While I respect your clear preference for sailboats, that's really not the topic of this forum. Also, that preference clouds some of your statements to lead to statements either not true or not relevant such as talking ocean crossing when the subject is the Big U and the statement that most long range boats run 6-7 knots when there are probably more that run above 7 than below. Also, very few sailboats in the class comparable to the trawlers being discussed and with average sailors average 6 to 7 knots on long cruises, especially those following a coastline.

Yes, more sailboats cross the Atlantic than small powerboats. More large powerboats cross than either. But how did sailboats even come into this discussion? Did I miss a shift into a not so parallel universe?
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:52 PM   #87
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Hello all,

I'm the OP, and am finding all the posts very informative. I couldn't respond sooner because Iinadvertently got suspended when I tried to include my email address in a response to a private post and kept hitting the send button after small corrections.

These posts are anything but boring!

One thing I've decided after reading all the posts is that I'm going to TrawlerFest in Baltimore this Fall. I went in 2011, and ended up buying the Swift Trawler 34. Who knows what will happen now?


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Old 07-05-2014, 09:00 PM   #88
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Hey... got a friend with a clean 55' Viking motor yacht for sale here in Avalon Manor, NJ (just shoreside of Avalon)

Been for sale for a couple years and could be had for a decent price....stabilized too!

Beautiful Liveaboard...capable of the Big U...larger motors from the old days (1988 I think) but run slow could be a decent setup.

Grand banks are nice...so are a lot of other boats and this could be had for a fraction of some of those in newer models.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:07 PM   #89
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Hey... got a friend with a clean 55' Viking motor yacht for sale here in Avalon Manor, NJ (just shoreside of Avalon)

Been for sale for a couple years and could be had for a decent price....stabilized too!

Beautiful Liveaboard...capable of the Big U...larger motors from the old days (1988 I think) but run slow could be a decent setup.

Grand banks are nice...so are a lot of other boats and this could be had for a fraction of some of those in newer models.
Vikings and Hatteras are often overlooked when searching for a boat of this nature. Often they are good options.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:10 PM   #90
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The 55 Vikings are very nice boats... Probably worth looking at if that's the size you are looking for...
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:44 PM   #91
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Sailboats, the big U.

Rowboats have crossed the Atlantic so there is not need for a discussion that semi-displacement or planing boats are not qualified to cross big open water. The discussion of sail boats (almost all full displacement) is fairly on point in that few powerboats less than 60 feet have crossed an ocean. As the 2004 Nordhavn rally demonstrated we have a lot to learn about 24/7 operation of powerboats. Sailboat technology has had thousands of years to perfect.

An important point for me is that all boats are designed and built with a target market and target use in mind. The compromises are driven by those decisions. Speed or distance. Storage or living space. Hugh windows or windows which can take a hit. The list goes on and on. If you take a boat designed for one use and use it for another it may work for you, but some of the design elements may not be best for your use.

It is often said that if you can tell how you are going to use your boat you can narrow down the boats to look at.

Full displacement is geared to long distance cruising. Semi-displacement gives up some sea keeping ability for faster speed. Full displacement generally has more storage space. Both types of boats are fine.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:11 PM   #92
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Asking what cruising boats are in Alaska is like asking what boats are in Key West, Norfolk and Newfoundland on the East coast.

Getting to Juneau could be almost any boat, getting to Homer takes a bit more...but not a whole lot more boat or much better captain.... and cruising to Attu Island or Nome would take yet another level of boat and or skill in my eyes.

Kevin can blast that if he wants...or hopefully see my point...but I know something about all of those waters from my travels on USCG Cutters and living and pleasure boating out of Kodiak for 2 years...plus the many rescue and fisheries missions I flew up there seeing what it was like on the water 365 days a year.

Just like any water...some people are only comfortable and even capable with certain types of boats while other are perfectly happy and safe circumnavigating inJWieboldt@homepowersystems.net bathtubs.
I completely agree!

That is actually the point I'm trying to get accross!

Thanks!!!
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:24 PM   #93
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Kevin

Whenever I discuss what is needed for a cruising boat to go to an area I ignore the purely local boats. Their needs are different. What percentage of the cruising boats coming up from the lower 48 states are planing versus full displacement?
Actually Marty I've see several types of "new arrivals"

First are sail boats. They come here from everywhere.

Then there are the really large yachts. Boats over 70' with crew etc...

A couple Nordhavns come every year.

I've yet to see a KK although I'd love to!

Then there are the boats being brought up by new owners from the lower 48 states. Some number of these leave as well.

The point of my post was and remains that if XXX boat can ply the local waters it can cruise along any coastline. If a boat can make it to Seward Alaska it can go anywhere in the North and I beleive the central americas.

Crossing the gulf of Alaska is a minimum of 210NM of open ocean. I cannot think of anywhere in the north or central americas that is further with no place to escape bad weather.

There are GB's here. There are a variety of TT's here. There are Tollycrafts. There are are three of my model of Bayliner here. There's a nice looking Navigator as well.

Each and every boat here made it safely across the Gulf of Alaska. Each and every boat here leaves our harbor and they go cruising in the Gulf of Alaska.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:50 PM   #94
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Kevin - Flying over all that water was definitely a love /hate relationship...loved the scenery...hated the thought of ever having to ditch....

....almost hard to imagine cruising it and feeling completely relaxed due t the weather, water temp and the immense remoteness of it all....

....as I said...the run just up to Juneau seemed a cakewalk compared to pressing on.

Only up over the ice did it ever feel a little better...then you would think of all the white bears licking their lips....
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:18 AM   #95
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A flying bridge is fine for watching fireworks. Good thing Ray/Giggitoni has one.

Phooey! The views were fine from the foredeck yesterday. See no use for a flying bridge now.
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:32 AM   #96
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I think all the trawlers mentioned have their place and each type has probably multiple examples of successful long passages. However if you are talking the big U and we stick to pure sea keeping ability economy and crew comfort and safety the motor sailor or modern ocean crossing sail boat with a good auxiliary and fuel tankage has to be #1. As for speed most long range motor boats run 6-7 knots unless they are large. A good sailboat of equal WL can with wind and motor also average 6-7 K and roll stabilization is built into the design. The basic design of most open ocean rated sail boats is far superior to the typical high freeboard power boats being quoted for the big U transit. Until recently most long range cruising has been done with sailing or sail assisted boats. Beebe kind of helped push a revolution in ocean crossing motor boats. Nevertheless the sail boat is still there and in many ways with modern diesel motors still the ocean jumping champ.
Good points. I have to agree.

Although many different boat types can handle short runs across unprotected blue water, motor sailers are perhaps the cheapest way to do it comfortably within a pilothouse.
I would guess that my local cruising waters are similar in roughness and in isolation, to the Alaskan waters. (although perhaps a bit warmer)
Finding a pilothouse boat that could handle these waters with some form of roll stabilization for under $50K, a motor sailer was my only option. If I had 10 X that to spend on a boat, I'd have plenty of choices.
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Old 07-06-2014, 05:28 AM   #97
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I don't need to be sold on the merits of an upper helm. I don't want one. What I'm asking would there be less roll due to having less weight and windage by removing the upper fiberglass?
What is the general consensus on the looks of the boat without the upper helm? I confirmed the picture photo shopped is a Mark I not a Mark II. The Mark II has no cockpit area only a full width and length aft cabin.

Bill
Coming in on this a bit late Billy, and sorry if anyone else picked up on this, but strangely, being no great fan of the flybridge myself either, even though I have one, your comment re having no rear cockpit is the one thing which would make me hesitate if I had your boat. It is the only sit outside in place you have, seeing perched on top of an aft cabin is hardly the place to be, usually too narrow unless set out as a full width sub-deck. If you removed the bridge, and covered it with panels etc, then you are either in the boat or off the boat, there being no nice perch out on deck.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:38 AM   #98
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The cockpit is the top of the aft cabin, I should have made that more clear, then there is the bow area which while anchored is perfectly safe to use. The rear aft roof is surrounded by guard rails so it's not like it's a nothing or all situation.
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:02 PM   #99
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Just want to throw something out to the OP and all others contemplating a long trip such as big U. What about the price and availability of fuel? With the present price and what's happening in the mid east I would strongly advise deep thought on fuel economy and the cost of funding the trip and we have not even had a oil crisis yet. If I were contemplating such a trip and had to watch my budget I would be looking toward sail assisted boats with great(not good great) fuel economy. Considering the lack of a definition of what a trawler is many could qualify maybe in the category as sail assisted trawler. I don't always follow my convictions by putting my money where my mouth is. In this case I have. I scooped up several hundred thou in Can and Us oil stocks over the last three years. I remember the last oil crisis and what happened to motor boat use and sales. I also remember how sail boats cruised through that crisis. This may not be a big issue for dock furniture boats or short distance use but it certainly would be a major big U consideration.
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:36 PM   #100
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Just want to throw something out to the OP and all others contemplating a long trip such as big U. What about the price and availability of fuel? With the present price and what's happening in the mid east I would strongly advise deep thought on fuel economy and the cost of funding the trip and we have not even had a oil crisis yet. If I were contemplating such a trip and had to watch my budget I would be looking toward sail assisted boats with great(not good great) fuel economy. Considering the lack of a definition of what a trawler is many could qualify maybe in the category as sail assisted trawler. I don't always follow my convictions by putting my money where my mouth is. In this case I have. I scooped up several hundred thou in Can and Us oil stocks over the last three years. I remember the last oil crisis and what happened to motor boat use and sales. I also remember how sail boats cruised through that crisis. This may not be a big issue for dock furniture boats or short distance use but it certainly would be a major big U consideration.
I doubt I'll actually get to do the complete big U. Realistically the pacific coast through Mexico is highly probable. I've already done the northern half, twice so I'm halfway there. The rest is a dream, but it'll take the Admrials blessing and we'll have to see where that goes.

When discussing the costs of long distance cruising we need to realize that the cost is spread out over time. Time measured in years for most of us. The realistic calculation of fuel costs is based on how much cruising vs how much exploring on land you plan to do.

Our cruising plans involve using the boat as a home base to explore from. I'm thinking we'll probably move the boat no more than once a week and only as far as the next port. I'm estimating worst case 100NM a week at 1.75NMPG or say max 60 gallons a week. extrapolating that into a monthly expense I anticipate around a thousand a month in fuel costs. This isn't a budget amount, its a guess as to what we'll be spending based on our preferred cruising style.

Some people might prefer to cruise more. They, depending on their budget requirements might need to consider a more fuel efficient boat, either by design or by size or both.
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