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Old 11-26-2014, 11:59 PM   #41
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Not exactly in the market but using Nordhavn as an example. Where do their Chinese customers take delivery?
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Old 11-27-2014, 05:58 AM   #42
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We are located in a development called Turkey Creek in Ortona 33471, which is a stones throw from river forest.

On a chart it is the first inlet east of RF m the one with all the visible fingers of water.

The next canal East goes to a round pond , about 40 ft deep, very protected locally called Lollypop.

I have a couple of hundred FT of tie up space , anyone is welcome for an O nite.

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Old 11-27-2014, 01:13 PM   #43
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Spot On!


By selling The Farm, we can liquidate the house debt, buy the boat with cash and have enough money left over to live for years in Asia and the Pacific. Not having a house and cars saves huge buckets of money. If we sell The Farm, we can retire early and claw back some very precious premium years that would be consumed by working. I would rather have a few extra prime years of life than a house we won't be using and will be an anchor.

Buying The Boat by selling The Farm completely changes, in a VERY positive way, our financial circumstances. Our long term retirement plan was to save enough of our own money to live on and not depend on Social Security but by living in Asia for a few years, we can live very well, but cheaply, on the proceeds of selling the Farm and wait for SS to kick in. It looks like we could live on the Farm proceeds and Social Security for a good 7-8 years before possibly needed to tap our retirement savings. In 7-8 years the investments should roughly double. Our current investments would easily allows us to pay for our land lifestyle at retirement time but if the money doubles....



Selling The Farm and buying The Boat buys us some very precious premium years, drastically lowers expenses, lets us travel to places we really want to see, and ironically, will increase our retirement funds!

Keeping a house we would not even be living in would cost us money, negatively impact our retirement funds and just does not make any sense at all for what we want to do.

Later,
Dan
For your situation, and for many, selling the farm might be a good idea. If one was looking at retirement saddled by a mortgage then selling out for a boat, or a condo or a smaller home makes financial sense. In that case selling the farm might be the only realistic path to retirement.

For others without the burden of a mortgage, selling the farm makes much less sense. If I sold my house today, I could not re-buy it with the same money in 10 years. My house does not represent a value to me, it represents a place where the wife and I can live rent free forever. It also represents the possibility of trading it for another rent free place to live, if we find somewhere we prefer in the future.

Now, if the situation were different, and I'm trying to be honest with myself here... If I could convince the Admrial to sell out or if I were single I could sell my home, and use the cash to retire at 52 and lead a very good life, as opposed to waiting another 6 years for my normal retirement.

The problem with that thinking is that I would then have no post cruising choices. I/we'd be folks with no house, and a boat not worth enough to sell and buy a house. At least not a house in a place and or of the type we'd want to live in.

The choice of selling the farm would be a one way choice. No turning back. Living aboard would not then be a choice, it would be a necessity.

That's what the article was trying to say.
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Old 11-27-2014, 01:50 PM   #44
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Plenty of rentals in some places, more reasonable than owning in some cases, and with a boat, relocating is easy enough.

Again, with so many variables.... opinions and articles aren't right or wrong...just one possible way in thousands.
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Old 11-27-2014, 02:03 PM   #45
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My daughter and I have sold three pieces of real estate during the last three years. All three where owned for ten years or more. The investment results were poor. We would have been better off renting and having the money in the stock market during the same period.

This is just our experience. We are basing it on what were fairly accurate records of expenses, maintenance and repairs. I compared it to the results of a stock account which was fully invested during the same period.
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Old 11-27-2014, 02:07 PM   #46
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The choice of selling the farm would be a one way choice. No turning back. Living aboard would not then be a choice, it would be a necessity.

That's what the article was trying to say.
Selling the house and putting the money into savings would be one thing but as you point out if the house is sold and the money used for a boat, then that money disappears year by year.

I think one important aspect of this for anyone to consider is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the boat is not the permanent solution. At some point in life our health and other factors make it no longer practical, first for cruising, then for just living. Some among us are fine living for today and not worrying about the future. I'm personally incapable of that. If I had all my funds tied up in a boat, I'd be worried too much about the future. It would impact my quality of life now. For those like Dan who has thought it through and has a plan then they can do it without that worry.

But then this plays into our entire approach to retirement, boat or no boat. How many years do you plan for? How far forward do you worry? We all have different levels of planning required for our own comfort. Do we allow our fears to take the opportunities for the present away? If you're 50 there's a whole lot of difference between planning for 100 and planning for 75. Do we plan for long term care? How long?

I would also say in most couples one is more willing to take chances on the future for the present than the other who is often conservative.
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:31 AM   #47
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My house does not represent a value to me, it represents a place where the wife and I can live rent free forever. It also represents the possibility of trading it for another rent free place to live, if we find somewhere we prefer in the future.

No property taxes in AK, no insurance , electric power delivered free?

No maint required ?

A house is a Wasting Asset , it goes down hill with out maint at times.

Dont patch the roof , the roof leaves.

The yearly cost of all the spending is hardly living free!
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:43 AM   #48
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Not exactly in the market but using Nordhavn as an example. Where do their Chinese customers take delivery?
I don't know of any Chinese customers, but I do know several who have taken delivery in Hong Kong. They did all the commissioning in China, and moved a completely finished boat to Hong Kong for export. One guy was going through this while my boat was being built and I spent a fair amount of time with him in China. I wouldn't want to have traded places with him for anything. He pretty much lived there for several months, and that's really the crux of the issues.

Commissioning a complex, semi-custom boat takes a long time. Testing and fixing everything it one part of it, but just the process of fitting out a boat is huge. We spent nearly 3 months, and deferred a bunch of stuff that we felt we could do over the course of the next year or so. I think it's easy to take for granted how many cumulative things we do to outfit our boats over the first year or two of ownership. When the boat is conveniently accessible and you are on and off on a regular basis, all the little outfitting projects just blend in with daily usage. Now try identifying and planning every one of those steps, then getting them done on the other side of the world, in a place where nobody speaks English, and in a place where recreational boating is pretty much non-existent. There is no such thing as Defender, Fisheries Supply, or West Marine over there. I would never want to commission a boat anywhere other than a major yachting center. Even Dana Point is off the beaten path compared to Seattle or Ft Lauderdale, but it works because PAE is there. Heck, it's off the beaten path compared to Gloucester.

Now that said, PAE commissions boats in China, Austrailia, Europe, all over the place, and the boats end up just an nice as any other. But I'm sure the time required is much longer than doing it state-side. So for us, the shipping cost was worthwhile to be able to commission with ready access to the needed resource, and to do initial shake-down cruising in an area with excellent support. Then, once we have total confidence in the boat, we will venture to far away places.
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Old 11-28-2014, 11:43 AM   #49
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Commissioning a complex, semi-custom boat takes a long time. Testing and fixing everything it one part of it, but just the process of fitting out a boat is huge. We spent nearly 3 months, and deferred a bunch of stuff that we felt we could do over the course of the next year or so. I think it's easy to take for granted how many cumulative things we do to outfit our boats over the first year or two of ownership. When the boat is conveniently accessible and you are on and off on a regular basis, all the little outfitting projects just blend in with daily usage. Now try identifying and planning every one of those steps, then getting them done on the other side of the world, in a place where nobody speaks English, and in a place where recreational boating is pretty much non-existent.
I guess this is part of the Nordhavn process I still don't quite understand. With the new builds I've been associated with all those things were specified at the start of the build. Perhaps some changes along the way. But the specifications had all those commissioning items on them and the drawings had them identified and in place. But fitting the boat out was just a normal part of building it, not the start of a new project with a lengthy list of decisions to be made.

Now, I'd assumed that the reason Nordhavn worked this in the way they do was related to tariffs and duties and taxes in some way and perhaps to expertise they felt was lacking in China.

I just don't see why it should be difficult in identifying and planning those steps for a builder who has built as many boats as Nordhavn. Getting them done in some places, I do understand a potential difficulty.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:03 AM   #50
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A simple basic boat would have no problem being commissioned in a 3rd world yard.

It is the electronics that must work together that is difficult .

Hot water from engine , no problem.Depth sounder , no problem

Temperature and pressure of toilet pump sent to your I phone ?, do it in a better location.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:28 AM   #51
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I have had a lot of work done in Eastern Caribbean yards. While there are exceptions you would be prudent if you watched the workers every move. Repeatedly I have caught workers taking short cuts that I expressly prohibited. Worse part, I was paying them by the hour. I have also tested all screws and fittings to exclude those that were not stainless. Still living with several mistakes I had cautioned a worker about.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:48 AM   #52
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A little over a year ago we did exactly that, we sold the farm and bought a yacht and now we are living on it. We did a lot of research and a lot of talking, a lot. We had a 30' pocket Yacht and that helped us get familiar with cruising. We were also lucky in that a private dock fell into our lap (right place at the right time) so we don't pay moorage fees.

A year later, we asked each other if we had any regrets and both of us stated a resounding NO! Looking forward to exploring the inside passage and we haven’t looked back. It was right for us, but not for everyone.
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:20 PM   #53
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My thoughts on "selling the farm"

If I had only one farm to sell in order to buy my boat I'd have to think long and hard to make that leap. Thankfully, I'm not in that position and I although I do have to sell a farm to accomplish my dream I have a few other farms and investments to fall back on if things really go south.

Each of us has our limits of what type of risk vs. reward we're willing to accept, along with our individual levels of what we need to live comfortably for the duration of our lives. For example, since I have no Admiral in my life I can, and often do, take risk that someone wouldn't normally take and (knock on teak) my decisions have mostly proved to be good ones. It's all so personal that it's impossible to say if selling the farm is that right thing to do for everyone.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:33 PM   #54
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since I have no Admiral in my life I can, and often do, take risk that someone wouldn't normally take
Our priorities and risk tolerances and overall situations change many times in life, especially for those with kids. A life cycle might go from young and carefree to married and a bit less so to children and far more averse to risk, then to adult children and ready to boogie, followed by grandchildren and wanting to be there, then want to travel again, followed by health limitations. And all this around a constantly changing financial situation.

Mine changed completely the day I met my wife and then ours together has had a few big events to impact it.

I've known people who the biggest and greatest moments of their lives were being fired from jobs. I knew one man who was well educated and diligent but was never going to advance in the company. In that environment he was up against his ceiling even though he had much greater potential. I worked with him two years trying to get him to look at what he'd really like to do, but he was content. Finally, the time to go came as his position was eliminated. He received severance and I was worried even then he'd do nothing until it ran out. But, he took a job as a car salesman. His first month on the job he led the dealership in sales and he loved his new job, was so happy. Well, he now owns three dealerships worth millions and loves going to work every day.

Life is funny. Often ironic. Paradoxical. Challenging. I use to hear employers ask candidates they interviewed where they saw themselves in five years and some candidates even asked me when I was interviewing them, what I saw for them in five years. I told them that I didn't know what I was eating for dinner, so I certainly couldn't project five years. There is not a single five year period in my life that I could have guessed at the outset where it led.

We can be sure of change. "Permanent" is a word I've always avoided. There is no such thing.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:33 PM   #55
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We sold the farm, simply no regrets.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:19 PM   #56
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If I had only one farm to sell in order to buy my boat I'd have to think long and hard to make that leap. Thankfully, I'm not in that position and I although I do have to sell a farm to accomplish my dream I have a few other farms and investments to fall back on if things really go south.

Each of us has our limits of what type of risk vs. reward we're willing to accept, along with our individual levels of what we need to live comfortably for the duration of our lives. For example, since I have no Admiral in my life I can, and often do, take risk that someone wouldn't normally take and (knock on teak) my decisions have mostly proved to be good ones. It's all so personal that it's impossible to say if selling the farm is that right thing to do for everyone.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:45 PM   #57
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We sold the farm, simply no regrets.
To be honest you and the others here that have sold the farm scare me.

Yes, very scary. Sometimes I silently thank the admrial for her steadfast approach to her life.

Other times I silently curse it.
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:24 AM   #58
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To be honest you and the others here that have sold the farm scare me.

Yes, very scary. Sometimes I silently thank the admrial for her steadfast approach to her life.

Other times I silently curse it.
It is really not that bad. After my first divorce I was homeless anyway, so the boat was a good fit.

After my second divorce, I had 4 homes and several financial liabilities not of my doing that drove me to near bankruptcy during the banking/housing collapse in 2009. So a major life change and cheap place to live was in order.

Building back was actually easier and the boat has given me the flexibility to go south in the winter. So a good fit again.

I have lost more money on every house I ever owned to live in than any of the 3 boats I have lived on. So I'm not sure why it is scary unless it is about loss principle (which can be solved) or moving from an area and if you lost some money would be forever priced out of (maybe not fixable) and not able to move back.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:37 AM   #59
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Sold 5 houses during my lifetime and never lost money unless you want to include property taxes, HOA fees and home maintenance performed over the life of owning them. I don't view the house we live in as an investment. It is shelter, a place for study and hobbies, storage, entertainment and a place for food preparation and dining. Always thought those who view their primary residence as investment and a piggy bank were doomed for what many of them got although I have a lot of sympathy for the innocents who ended up suffering due to the greed and recklessness of others.

View my boat more as entertainment. The funds put into it, I can afford to lose and fully expect to lose over the time of ownership. We really got a low priced boat as far as trawlers go. Part of the fun is doing what we want to do to the boat to keep it up and enhance it. Maintenance is a must. Some of the other things don't really need to be done. Sure I would love to have one of the new Garmin 10" chartplotters but our current 2010C does the just just fine.

For those of you who have sold the farm or want to, I have no criticism of that approach. Some day we may choose to be live aboards but we will still maintain at least one farm. As far as I am concerned, life is good whether you live it on land or on the water as long as you live it responsibly.
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:01 AM   #60
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In 1997 we sold the house, our 1981 Mainship and a piece of property. We bought a 42.5 sailboat and sold or donated everything except 6 boxes of treasures (well we thought they were at the time). We left the US with idea of going for 3-5 years or for as long as we were still having fun. We returned to the US in 2005. In 2006 we sold the sailboat moved back to the PNW and Lena went back to work. Four months later she asked if we could find another boat. Bought Hobo and left the US for another 4+ years. I just had my right knee replaced 2 months ago so that has slowed us down a little but we're planning on leaving again in the late winter/early spring.

What scares us is living on land. Our lives are very simple living on the boat. No cable TV or cell phone contracts. We own no real estate, have an 5 x 8 storage locker for more treasures and have owned a car (s) for less than 4 years out of 14. Health insurance has been easy as has the banking/mail forwarding. Selling the farm isn't for everyone but heck you can always go back and buy another one.
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